Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[phoenixzero23]

Hickman really does need to improve his treatment of Jean by far that is absolutely true

[spirit2011]

And she right now is an active superhero. There are tons of problems with Hickman's portrayal but complainig for something that literally isn't happening feels like a stretch

She was putting the dinner table.

I don't remember of a meaningful development for Sue on FF

[phoenixzero23]

She was putting the dinner table.

I don't remember of a meaningful development for Sue on FF

Cyclops was washing the dishes and Cable was also putting the table, they were going to eat and everybody was helping, what is wrong with that? I do that, everybody does that.
Again, Hickman has done Jean wrong and barely touches her, I'm by no means defending him but this is making a storm on a glass of water.

[Havok83]

Cyclops was washing the dishes and Cable was also putting the table, they were going to eat and everybody was helping, what is wrong with that? I do that, everybody does that.
Again, Hickman has done Jean wrong and barely touches her, I'm by no means defending him but this is making a storm on a glass of water.

Hickman writes an awful Cable as well. He at least has had several issues with Cyclops under his belt where he's given him alot of focus and development so that first issue isnt the primary take away we have of him, which itself wasnt a bad showing for him bc we got to see him in action as an effective leader and hero

[Soulsword323]

She was putting the dinner table.

I don't remember of a meaningful development for Sue on FF

She's got to eat.

[spirit2011]

Cyclops was washing the dishes and Cable was also putting the table, they were going to eat and everybody was helping, what is wrong with that? I do that, everybody does that.
Again, Hickman has done Jean wrong and barely touches her, I'm by no means defending him but this is making a storm on a glass of water.

On the same issue he lead the team, put magneto on his place, Talked with Lorna about believing in krakoa and talked with his dad about living on krakoa.
that is a lot more than Jean, that only put the table and talked to Cable.

I would be more relieved with Hickman did a good job on Sue, but it lacked as hell. With Hickman taking jean role as a mom and wife, it does't look good.

[Celestialbodies]

Orchis mission Jean was very off for me. I liked Quiet Council Jean, but still have my doubts with Hickman. X-Force Jean has been excellent thus far, and Giant Size XM Jean was probably mostly due to Dauterman's input...plus it so closely follows NXM 121, and Jean shined there

Very off, you put any other senior X-men in Jean's spot and readers would be saying the same. Because it's Jean apparently all her fans just want her to be the singular star....

Have now read House of X/Powers of X, X-Men 1, X-Force 1-6 and Giant Size X-Men: Jean Grey + Emma Frost. Something is ... off. Jean Grey is stated to be an Omega telepath at the same time as she is underutilized in HoX/PoX. She behaves like a teenaged girl in some of the issues. And then in X-Men 1 she behaves like a housewife.
Hickman seems to have done his research. He seems to know his X-Men history and he knows the characters. He does know that Jean is a powerhouse. And yet he does not use her. I think his ideas are bolder than his characterization, but there is more going on here. As some have suggested, I think that Xavier is holding Jean back for some reason. Her codename and her costume suggest a regression to her character. At least in HoX/PoX and X-Men. In X-Force she is confident and powerful and versatile, ”able to play melody or harmony, to swing between the brightest and darkest notes”.
I love Jean in X-Force. But she is not a Marvel Girl and the costume doesn’t suit her. She is a true Marvel Woman here. It is like Percy and Hickman are writing two different characters. At least I felt this way until I read Giant Size. That version of Jean could have been written by Percy.
I just don’t get it. Or could it be that when Xavier was shot, something happened to Jean? That if Xavier was somehow holding her back, he lost his control over Jean when he died (for a while), and now the true Jean Grey is returning?
I am probably overthinking this, but to me it seemed clear that Hickman was going somewhere with Jean, she was weaker and a girl for a specific reason, and then something happened. Editorial input or a conscious move by Hickman?
Whatever the reason, I do wish she will get a new costume soon.
I still miss X-Men Red and the way Jean was written there. And I think Jean’s vision for mutants felt more modern than Xavier and Moira’s.
(Or maybe Xavier, Moira and Magneto are the bad guys - so sure of their dream that they have become fanatics.)

I think most Jean fans have expressed similar opinions!!

I could be wrong, but I just think Hickman doesn't really have much interest in the character. Though, in one of those X-men Monday interviews Hickman acted like there may be story reason Jean was back in the Marvel Girl look and said that he thought fans would figure it out on House of X 1. Which doesn't tell me anything. He also said to go back and look at the last significant story she wore the costume. Again doesn't say much and fans thought he was referencing Dark Phoenix Saga. Though Jean was back in the costume in Phoenix Resurrection.

Hickman doesn't have a strong voice for Jean yet, but I am hoping it will change. Jean has a strong presence in X-force and she was utilized well in the Giant Sized issue (which may have been of the influence of the artist). Hickman writes Scott and Wolverine extremely well and his Storm is good. He also writes Emma well. He may not be as interested in Jean or he just hasn't got to do much with her yet.

I don't think they will have Xavier manipulate Jean because that would make Xavier look more villain like and I think they are moving away from that (even though he does questionable things as a leader of a nation). Some thought Jean had died and had been reborn from an earlier version of her mind. I don't like this idea and I hope this is not the case.

I'm not sure if there will be an explanation for Jean's outdated look or why she was portrayed as she was in the House of X orchis mission.

I agree that Tom Taylor wanted Jean to have her own vision for mutants that was entirely her own. I did love that part of X-men Red. It did feel modern and a fresh take. Jean wanted mutant rights wherever mutants were, to be like a nationless state, which may come with its own problems but she felt that being on an island (Genosha, Utopia) made them targets. Now of course, Jean is all in with the new mutant nation. I guess both Jean and Cyclops liked Xavier's new vision. The X-men are now in another bold new direction.

There are things I love about the new direction: the quiet council, the resurrection protocols, streamlining the omega mutants, mutant society and culture, etc. It is challenging because it is changing some of the things we believe the X-men are. I prefer them being a school, but I admit creating a new nation is interesting.

I honestly, just think he doesn't have anything for her.

Agreed. Outside of the Orchis mission (which I still dont think it was a "terrible" showing for Jean) Hickman has written her pretty darn well. She might not have any sort of herculean power feats yet under his pen but I'd hardly say the ways shes acted is anything like a "teenage girl".

She was stellar in those first few issues of X-Force and Giant Size was fantastic. I have faith that Hickman will continue to write Jean as her fantastic self.

Given that he's only written her during HOX/POX, X-men 1, and Giant Sized X-men, and the latter was text-less and her inclusion was a suggestion of the artist. I'd say his portrayal of Jean is open to criticism what I don't understand is how every other author can have their works critiqued yet Hickman's above it because others liked his work as a whole. His Jean thus far has been incredibly lacking in presence, characterization, and expressing her own desires which is such a shame because for almost his entire cast he goes out of his way to do the opposite.

While that is true, but Jean before departing for the mission was worried about the human members of the space station crew. Jean without remembering the specific mission still has the same views, etc. I don't see how it affects much. I do wish they had established it was Jean's role to not only make connection with the island but with Xavier who was using Cerebro. Jean should have been their backup to keep their memories/minds current. But alas, that didn't happen.

The best way to view the Orchis Jean fiasco is that she was injured, she was under psychic strain, and she was in contact with the X-men minds as they died and that is traumatic. That and the artist may have over exaggerated Jean's face during those panels which added to the idea that Jean was freaking out. Plus Jean is very powerful but she often doesn't know her own strength - so she may have been uneasy about maintaining the connection herself (which she does go on to do).

I'm totally confused now as to exactly what Jean and Xavier were doing, Xavier obviously required someone to "pick up the line" to make contact with the away team, what's confusing I guess was I thought like you it was to back-up their memories. But the recent, X-men issue suggested the opposite, so was Jean simply there to link Xavier to the away team? The entire thing is a whole confusing mess for me.

Jean doesn't get much opportunity to show the feistiness that the teen version did because the story leaders aren't interested in that. Teen or not, she was going to get demoted in presence and power regardless. Part of that is because Teen Jean was at the center of a narrative, whereas regular Jean is a side-character.

Which brings us to where I think Jean is moving, someone mentioned awhile ago, Hickman loves to write morally gray characters who engages in complex and morally ambiguous situations. Which is why we've seen the same grouping of characters such as Xavier, Magneto, Moira, Mystique, Destiny, Emma, Apocalypse, Cyclops, Wolverine, etc all taking more consistently prominent roles across the main stories. Which is unfortunate for Jean, for no other reason than very rarely does writers present her in similar forms, outside of Claremont, Morrison, Bendis, Taylor and now Percy Jean isn't given the kind of focus which delve into her inner workings. I was hoping she wouldn't spend this decade in a supporting role but as all the pieces are moving into place she's consistently used as a peripheral piece.

[MechaJeanix]

While I’d prefer Jean in a leading role, I do not mind her being in a supporting role at times since the X-men is an ensemble cast ;-)
I mostly want her to be handled well meaning confident, capable, and smart. The use of her in X-force is good. I do want to see more of the Quiet Council. I’m skeptical about Jean with Scott and Logan but maybe it is time to be open minded to different relationship configurations.

I suspect Jean will continue to appear in both X-men and Wolverine.

[loke13]

Given that he's only written her during HOX/POX, X-men 1, and Giant Sized X-men, and the latter was text-less and her inclusion was a suggestion of the artist. I'd say his portrayal of Jean is open to criticism what I don't understand is how every other author can have their works critiqued yet Hickman's above it because others liked his work as a whole. His Jean thus far has been incredibly lacking in presence, characterization, and expressing her own desires which is such a shame because for almost his entire cast he goes out of his way to do the opposite.

If I gave off the impression that I Hickman is above criticism that wasn't my intent. You can critique his writing of Jean until the sun implodes doesn't mean I'm going to agree with it. And me disagreeing with similar opinions doesnt imply that I think Hickman is without fault. And the notion that Hickman had minimal input on Giant Size just because it was dialogue less is disingenuous he's the writer and had just as much contribution to the issue as the artist.

[spirit2011]

If I gave off the impression that I Hickman is above criticism that wasn't my intent. You can critique his writing of Jean until the sun implodes doesn't mean I'm going to agree with it. And me disagreeing with similar opinions doesnt imply that I think Hickman is without fault. And the notion that Hickman had minimal input on Giant Size just because it was dialogue less is disingenuous he's the writer and had just as much contribution to the issue as the artist.

Giant size was done Marvel style, so Dauterman had a lot of freedom on the issue.

[MechaJeanix]

Giant size was done Marvel style, so Dauterman had a lot of freedom on the issue.

Agreed and it seems apparent from Dauterman’s interviews that he had a lot of influence on the book and not just in reference to the art.

[starduck]

Yeah, as of now, Hickman hasn't written Jean in any substantial way. Giant size was more art driven

[spirit2011]

While I’d prefer Jean in a leading role, I do not mind her being in a supporting role at times since the X-men is an ensemble cast ;-)
I mostly want her to be handled well meaning confident, capable, and smart. The use of her in X-force is good. I do want to see more of the Quiet Council. I’m skeptical about Jean with Scott and Logan but maybe it is time to be open minded to different relationship configurations.

I suspect Jean will continue to appear in both X-men and Wolverine.

the problem is that the likes of Cyclops, Logan and even Emma are hardly supporting characters. Very few times x-men on the last years looked like a ensemble.

I don't have to accept new configurations of a love triangle that Hickman made up on his head from nowhere. It is past time for Jean explore new romances

[MechaJeanix]

the problem is that the likes of Cyclops, Logan and even Emma are hardly supporting characters. Very few times x-men on the last years looked like a ensemble.

I don't have to accept new configurations of a love triangle that Hickman made up on his head from nowhere. It is past time for Jean explore new romances

I don’t disagree with the others being leads, but Jean had a big push the last few years between Teen Jean and Adult Jean’s return. I wish Jean wouldn’t be involved in any romances but that isn’t happening from how it looks.

[phoenixzero23]

With all the trouble that comes from two love interest. I can't imagine how much worse would be to keep adding more people.