Jean Grey: Phoenix/Marvel Girl Appreciation 2020

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I read so many fans saying the Phoenix was the worst thing to happen to her and that she would never be respected as long as the Phoenix was around, that she would be forever overshadowed by the Phoenix, that the Phoenix keeps Jean in a never ending loop of getting killed off.

I didn't and don't take comments like this seriously. Mostly I think people that say this tend to not be into the character in general, prefer her to not be an epic character because of her status as the main character's girlfriend, or just like taking shots at her.

I bet if you look back, people talking about how many times she has died are on board with the mutant resurrection status quo.

[starduck]

I like the Red costume

I didn't and don't take comments like this seriously. Mostly I think people that say this tend to not be into the character in general, prefer her to not be an epic character because of her status as the main character's girlfriend, or just like taking shots at her.

I bet if you look back, people talking about how many times she has died are on board with the mutant resurrection status quo.

I kinda get the dread about the Phoenix Force. Last time she had it Xorneto gave her a stroke and she was banished of X-books for 14 years. I think in a different time with different writers Jean and the Phoenix could be together again without going crazy or dying or all that other baggage

[Wiccan]

I kinda get the dread about the Phoenix Force. Last time she had it Xorneto gave her a stroke and she was banished of X-books for 14 years.

...And those things are completely unrelated.

[franckd]

Here here, no amount of color changing is going to change an inherently ugly and poor design.

Hickman said suits were Mutants clothes now, and they could use old suits. And yet, they make Jean wear the worst ones.
Mahmud Asrar created great suits for Storm and Trinary. Unfortunately he also created that horrible red and blue turd. And yes, make it green & yellow, it will still be a turd.
I don't want to offend fans who love that suit. It's just a matter of taste, it's not personal. Not saying my tastes are better than theirs. Just that I despise this suit with all my... eyes.

[MechaJeanix]

Just some quick thoughts..

Yes a lot of fans turned against the Phoenix because of what they did with and to it. Even a lot of Jean Grey fans began to despise the Phoenix and again because of what they did with and to it (passing it around, making it its own character, etc). Some of us have always hated the Phoenix being separate from Jean and/or Rachel. That is not what Claremont intended. The Phoenix isn't why Marvel kept Jean dead. They kept her dead because they had moved Cyclops to a new place and gave him a new lover which became very popular. Quesada had said he didn't want to do a divorce story so to keep Scott and Jean broke up, Jean was killed off. Yes Morrison killed her but with her connection to the Phoenix writers could have brought her back whenever they wanted (as long as it was approved).

As for Jean in Morrison's run, she had a lot of screen time. She was a very important character and she had a subplot that ran through the entire run. Tell me another time Jean had so much significance and focus? The Claremont years, and for a lot of fans that wasn't even Jean due to the retcon. Morrison gave all his characters focus but not all characters were heavily involved in every arc. Jean had good roles in Murder at the Mansion, Planet X, and Here Comes Tomorrow. Those are some of my favorite X-men stories.

I do think the current view is that the Phoenix is too powerful for any one person to contain. Dennis Hopeless said that once in an interview when discussing the Jean Grey solo. At least in his book it was said that Jean is the perfect vessel/host but again we really don't know why (I supposed because she fully embraced it). In Resurrection Jean seemed confused by the Phoenix. In Endsong Jean seemed to understand the Phoenix and her role with it.

Rosenberg's sleepy little story started out decent but it faltered after the first issue imo. I don't think he understood the Phoenix and his letter in the last issue confirmed that (he didn't understand the rules of the White Hot room, etc). He was in the no phoenix camp. I didn't expect Jean to retain the Phoenix but I wish she had something big to do with it in her final story as Phoenix. I wish it was more of a destiny fulfilled story and less of a break up and turning the Phoenix into a toxic cosmic trickster. It lost the majesty that Claremont and Morrison used with the Phoenix. Rosenberg's take was just a bad, bad take.

When you read Kelly's run, Clarmeont's Revolution, and Morrison's run you do not get the idea that Jean is being manipulated into a toxic relationship. You read a Jean Grey who is embracing who she is, her powers, and being confident. I don't know how Rosenberg could have read those stories and come up with this take (though I may can see it with Endsong and Warsong).

[franckd]

Rosenberg's sleepy little story started out decent but it faltered after the first issue imo. I don't think he understood the Phoenix and his letter in the last issue confirmed that (he didn't understand the rules of the White Hot room, etc). He was in the no phoenix camp. I didn't expect Jean to retain the Phoenix but I wish she had something big to do with it in her final story as Phoenix. I wish it was more of a destiny fulfilled story and less of a break up and turning the Phoenix into a toxic cosmic trickster. It lost the majesty that Claremont and Morrison used with the Phoenix. Rosenberg's take was just a bad, bad take.

When you read Kelly's run, Clarmeont's Revolution, and Morrison's run you do not get the idea that Jean is being manipulated into a toxic relationship. You read a Jean Grey who is embracing who she is, her powers, and being confident. I don't know how Rosenberg could have read those stories and come up with this take (though I may can see it with Endsong and Warsong).

I agree. And that "break up" story was so, so, so dumb. Jean saying she doesn't understand the purpose of Phoenix. It was just Rosenberg talking. He was the one, not getting it. It wasn't her. Jean embraced the Phoenix during Claremont, Seagle and Morrison's run. She was in peace with it at the end of the Endsong mini.

What Rosenberg did was a huge step backward. After 14 years of being dead, it was just unacceptable.

Now let's hope that Jean will reach her potential, as a Phoenix, without cosmic entity, without being over powerful. It doesn't have to be the all cosmic fire bird. Aaron can keep the fried chicken. As long as Jean embraced the phoenix legacy, its imagery and power signature, it's fine. The phoenix is her emblem, it's her totem. And that's why she was the most important Phoenix host. That's why she's always the Phoenix first choice.

Again, Jean can be Phoenix, suit and imagery, with a pink phoenix signature. Without being a goddess. They even should give the "fire cosmic phoenix entity" to the Avengers, and keep it forever, just to make it clear that Jean is not possessed or powered up by it.

[MechaJeanix]

I agree. And that "break up" story was so, so, so dumb. Jean saying she doesn't understand the purpose of Phoenix. It was just Rosenberg talking. He was the one, not getting it. It wasn't her. Jean embraced the Phoenix during Claremont, Seagle and Morrison's run. She was in peace with it at the end of the Endsong mini.

What Rosenberg did was a huge step backward. After 14 years of being dead, it was just unacceptable.

Now let's hope that Jean will reach her potential, as a Phoenix, without cosmic entity, without being over powerful. It doesn't have to be the all cosmic fire bird. Aaron can keep the fried chicken. As long as Jean embraced the phoenix legacy, its imagery and power signature, it's fine. The phoenix is her emblem, it's her totem. And that's why she was the most important Phoenix host. That's why she's always the Phoenix first choice.

Again, Jean can be Phoenix, suit and imagery, with a pink phoenix signature. Without being a goddess. They even should give the "fire cosmic phoenix entity" to the Avengers, and keep it forever, just to make it clear that Jean is not possessed or powered up by it.

They could always do that even without the phoenix imagery if they continued to use the pink psionic form from Teen Jean. I'd rather see Jean regain the Phoenix identity once more but I'd rather the Phoenix force not be used elsewhere either. I mean Jean is this omega telepath and it is untelling what she could do with it. I think they should have just said that Jean as an omega telepath when her powers reach their upper limit she automatically plugs into the phoenix reserves. Or they could come out with certainty to say her power/mutation is naturally connected to the Phoenix. The Phoenix as a cosmic force should be tied to mutants and not other areas of the MU.
If the Phoenix is a psychic cosmic whatever it can better be explained its affinity for Jean, Rachel, or Quentin.

They could reveal cavewoman phoenix to be the early ancestor to Jean and that would solve some issues (just like Ultimate X-man where Jean had a connection to mutant alpha or whatever that story was). I think there are ways to fix the damage done but I would be ok with your idea of Jean using the name and identity without any cosmic power.

I'm just not sure the editors would go for that because fans would be confused about whether she had the force or not.

[spirit2011]

I didn't and don't take comments like this seriously. Mostly I think people that say this tend to not be into the character in general, prefer her to not be an epic character because of her status as the main character's girlfriend, or just like taking shots at her.

I bet if you look back, people talking about how many times she has died are on board with the mutant resurrection status quo.

Seeing how much Hickman is well received, saw very little people complaining about the ressurrection system.
Jean only ever died twice

[PowerPlay25]

I was dissapointed when I saw that Morrison wasn't telling jean story and instead made Jean a prop to other hcaracters.

Ressurrection was about jean even with too little Jean. At least Rosenberg did his objective, even if the execution wasn't bery good

It was very telling that in storylines touted to be about Jean, she wasn't even in every issue (I remember Morrison touting HCT as Jean's story and she had even less page time than she did in PR) but he did ascend other characters in his run to A-List status, if your a fan of those, I can understand why one would love his tenure.

On the subject of PR, I even took the amnesia Jean as very telling about her character. I always believed Jean Grey to be relatable because she has the inner life of a regular person. Her ideal life would have been one free of bigotry against mutants, she would have been close with her parents and grown up with Annie Richardson. And resurrection's conclusion showed that the natural order (because of the life she lives) will never give Jean those things. I found the whole thing poignant and heart wrenching.

I kinda get the dread about the Phoenix Force. Last time she had it Xorneto gave her a stroke and she was banished of X-books for 14 years.

Pretty much. I've seen people say that GM intended to bring her back but nobody has ever been able to find the quote. His aversion to giving me Jean's perspective on a number of things (like the disintegration of her marriage) kept me from connecting with the character at the time. Everything was Phoenix this or Phoenix that, when there were far more interesting things to explore. Then she was dead. A sour note to exit the stage on if you ask me. I also remember many people swearing Jean would be back (because she was coming back in X-Men Last Stand as Phoenix, ignoring that she was likely to die at the end of that movie. Then "She'll be back in House of M" and then the next storyline and the next. SMH

The Jean Grey character has missed a LOT of storyline opportunity over the last decade and change. It's no wonder some writers (Hickman) seem unfamiliar with her voice. But the character also has the caveat that most others don't. Some fans consider the Phoenix a must and they would rather Jean be Phoenix and written out of the books (guest appearances when Scott feels like reflection or Emma needs a punchline to a catty comment) than play an active role in plots and stories (X-Men Red) as just Jean Grey.

But I guess writers know you can't please everyone. I hope this period of X-Men will be beneficial to Jean. X-Men Red was a very good start but she could certainly use more TLC.

[starduck]

It was very telling that in storylines touted to be about Jean, she wasn't even in every issue (I remember Morrison touting HCT as Jean's story and she had even less page time than she did in PR. But he did ascend other characters in his run to A-List status, if your a fan of those, I can understand why one would love his tenure.

On the subject of PR, I even took the amnesia Jean as very telling about her character. I always believed Jean Grey to be relatable because she has the inner life of a regular person. Her ideal life would have been one free of bigotry against mutants, she would have been close with her parents and grown up with Annie Richardson. And resurrection's conclusion showed that the natural order (because of the life she lives) will never give Jean those things. I found the whole thing poignant and heart wrenching.



Pretty much. I've seen people say that GM intended to bring her back but nobody has ever been able to find the quote. His aversion to giving me Jean's perspective on a number of things (like the disintegration of her marriage) kept me from connecting with the character at the time. Everything was Phoenix this or Phoenix that, when there were far more interesting things to explore. Then she was dead. A sour note to exit the stage on if you ask me. I also remember many people swearing Jean would be back (because she was coming back in X-Men Last Stand as Phoenix, ignoring that she was likely to die at the end of that movie. Then "She'll be back in House of M" and then the next storyline and the next. SMH

The Jean Grey character has missed a LOT of storyline opportunity over the last decade and change. It's no wonder some writers (Hickman) seem unfamiliar with her voice. But the character also has the caveat that most others don't. Some fans consider the Phoenix a must and they would rather Jean be Phoenix and written out of the books (guest appearances when Scott feels like reflection or Emma needs a punchline to a catty comment) than play an active role in plots and stories (X-Men Red) as just Jean Grey.

But I guess writers know you can't please everyone. I hope this period of X-Men will be beneficial to Jean. X-Men Red was a very good start but she could certainly use more TLC.

I agree with all this Jean needs more stories and a Phoenix saga rehash ain't it chief. Though I'm fine with Phoenix Jean if they drop all the "oh no she'll destroy the world" paranoia

[spirit2011]

It was very telling that in storylines touted to be about Jean, she wasn't even in every issue (I remember Morrison touting HCT as Jean's story and she had even less page time than she did in PR. But he did ascend other characters in his run to A-List status, if your a fan of those, I can understand why one would love his tenure.

yeah, she didn't had much page time and HCT she had even less to be considered a story about her. And when you look that she was just a vehicle to Cyclops mourn for 2 minutes and move on, it's even worse.
I said before on these forum, it wasn't Jean journey that Morrison was telling. For a good example of a journey of a female character jason Aaron on Jane Foster is a great one;
Majority of Morrison's x-men die hard fans are fans of the two characters that he gave the A+ status.

On the subject of PR, I even took the amnesia Jean as very telling about her character. I always believed Jean Grey to be relatable because she has the inner life of a regular person. Her ideal life would have been one free of bigotry against mutants, she would have been close with her parents and grown up with Annie Richardson. And resurrection's conclusion showed that the natural order (because of the life she lives) will never give Jean those things. I found the whole thing poignant and heart wrenching.

Jean story is very tragic, she lost all her family. Yeahm she can't have what she wants but she go ahead instead of whine about how awful is her life.
I still would like to see more about this on books, phoenix ressurrection was to fast to deal with this and Shiar should pay for this. At least the killers.
Her family being killed is another case about story that should be about Jean not being about her.
Now everything she has is older Au daughter that she doesn't has a relaitonship and Cable that is adopted.

Pretty much. I've seen people say that GM intended to bring her back but nobody has ever been able to find the quote. His aversion to giving me Jean's perspective on a number of things (like the disintegration of her marriage) kept me from connecting with the character at the time. Everything was Phoenix this or Phoenix that, when there were far more interesting things to explore. Then she was dead. A sour note to exit the stage on if you ask me. I also remember many people swearing Jean would be back (because she was coming back in X-Men Last Stand as Phoenix, ignoring that she was likely to die at the end of that movie. Then "She'll be back in House of M" and then the next storyline and the next. SMH

They will never find the quote because he never said anything about that. Maybe if someone ask him now he will say something to save his face.
Morrison wanted jean to be a God, so her marriage ending was a after thought or not even a thought for Jean; Also less people getting her side of the story would facilitate kill her. It was like Marriage story but only to adam Driver side and he cheated on Scarjo.

I pretty much know that people liked the Morrison run, but this is how I feel.

The Jean Grey character has missed a LOT of storyline opportunity over the last decade and change. It's no wonder some writers (Hickman) seem unfamiliar with her voice. But the character also has the caveat that most others don't. Some fans consider the Phoenix a must and they would rather Jean be Phoenix and written out of the books (guest appearances when Scott feels like reflection or Emma needs a punchline to a catty comment) than play an active role in plots and stories (X-Men Red) as just Jean Grey.

But I guess writers know you can't please everyone. I hope this period of X-Men will be beneficial to Jean. X-Men Red was a very good start but she could certainly use more TLC.

I don't think all her time as dead is a excuse, as Taylor wasn't even a fan and wroter her pretty good after all this time dead.

Second time she died I don't think it had anything to do with Phoenix, as she was fridged. But Phoenix facilitate get hid of her and keep her dead with some white hot room crap.

Sometimes I really want jean powerful with Phoenix, but i doubt writers won't fall on the same dead and Cold God again. Also x-men seems very small for jean play phoenix.
Now if some writer has a new thing to say, I would be up to see that

I don't have many hopes for hoxpoxdox as i see she going to places that she shouldn't go.

[phoenixzero23]

I think one problem is that the X-men individually are too weak and their enemies have to be on that level. Jean can't be Phoenix like that because she would one shot everything and everybody else would become redundant or job. I would really like to her on some big cosmic trouble on the f4. There she could be full phoenix without jobbing much.

[franckd]

I agree with all this Jean needs more stories and a Phoenix saga rehash ain't it chief. Though I'm fine with Phoenix Jean if they drop all the "oh no she'll destroy the world" paranoia

That would be fresh. A Phoenix Jean with no dramas, with no "she's going dark and/or crazy". If the MCU has to go through the Phoenix road, I hope they will never go through the Dark Phoenix routine. It has been done twice, and badly done. We don't need an other DP saga, no more than we would need a new spider-man origin movie.

They could always do that even without the phoenix imagery if they continued to use the pink psionic form from Teen Jean. I'd rather see Jean regain the Phoenix identity once more but I'd rather the Phoenix force not be used elsewhere either. I mean Jean is this omega telepath and it is untelling what she could do with it. I think they should have just said that Jean as an omega telepath when her powers reach their upper limit she automatically plugs into the phoenix reserves. Or they could come out with certainty to say her power/mutation is naturally connected to the Phoenix. The Phoenix as a cosmic force should be tied to mutants and not other areas of the MU.
If the Phoenix is a psychic cosmic whatever it can better be explained its affinity for Jean, Rachel, or Quentin.

They could reveal cavewoman phoenix to be the early ancestor to Jean and that would solve some issues (just like Ultimate X-man where Jean had a connection to mutant alpha or whatever that story was). I think there are ways to fix the damage done but I would be ok with your idea of Jean using the name and identity without any cosmic power.

I'm just not sure the editors would go for that because fans would be confused about whether she had the force or not.

It was Morrison's take : Phoenix is both a part of Jean's mutation and a force she's tapping in (and if she get "too close" the phoenix replaces her). I liked it.
But right now, I'd love a Phoenix Jean without cosmic force. Something of her own. Maybe she could reach that potential with the help of Apocalypse, now that he's on Krakoa. Apo was interested in Jean, and was wondering if she could be phoenix again, during her X-Factor years. Maybe there is something to explore here.

[WallStreeter]

I agree. And that "break up" story was so, so, so dumb. Jean saying she doesn't understand the purpose of Phoenix. It was just Rosenberg talking. He was the one, not getting it. It wasn't her. Jean embraced the Phoenix during Claremont, Seagle and Morrison's run. She was in peace with it at the end of the Endsong mini.

What Rosenberg did was a huge step backward. After 14 years of being dead, it was just unacceptable.

Now let's hope that Jean will reach her potential, as a Phoenix, without cosmic entity, without being over powerful. It doesn't have to be the all cosmic fire bird. Aaron can keep the fried chicken. As long as Jean embraced the phoenix legacy, its imagery and power signature, it's fine. The phoenix is her emblem, it's her totem. And that's why she was the most important Phoenix host. That's why she's always the Phoenix first choice.

Again, Jean can be Phoenix, suit and imagery, with a pink phoenix signature. Without being a goddess. They even should give the "fire cosmic phoenix entity" to the Avengers, and keep it forever, just to make it clear that Jean is not possessed or powered up by it.

Except I don’t think she would want to use the Phoenix code name and imagery unless she was going to completely reclaim its power.

That doesn’t mean they have to keep rehashing Dark Phoenix stories. Been
There done that.

I do like Jean’s pink form and I liked the future in which Adult Teen Jean, calmed Phoenix Chen stopped four Silver Surfers and took on Galactus. That is a goddess.

But so what? The XMen have other gods. Magik bear Dormammu, another hell lord. Storm beat the Adversary, a demon who destroys world’s. Selene ate the souls of 16 million dead mutants. Then there’s Apocalypse. The XMen already have gods as members.

[hulkling]

Except I don’t think she would want to use the Phoenix code name and imagery unless she was going to completely reclaim its power.

That doesn’t mean they have to keep rehashing Dark Phoenix stories. Been
There done that.

I do like Jean’s pink form and I liked the future in which Adult Teen Jean, calmed Phoenix Chen stopped four Silver Surfers and took on Galactus. That is a goddess.

But so what? The XMen have other gods. Magik bear Dormammu, another hell lord. Storm beat the Adversary, a demon who destroys world’s. Selene ate the souls of 16 million dead mutants. Then there’s Apocalypse. The XMen already have gods as members.

But for Selene and Storm their power ups are temporary. and in the case of Magik she defeated Dormammu in her own realm. A demon lord in her own realm has more power than the phoenix force, she isnt that powerful usually