Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2020

[Zaresh]

Surprising Spoilers for 3 JOKERS #2 from Reddit

https://i.redd.it/8hr7l2csm7p51.png

I knew it.
Welp, seems like Johns was talking about Jason Todd in DDC after all.

[Zaresh]

she got Tim to!? Duke is about 18, that's legal, he might be next before she starts in on Damian she's just bidding her time, collecting Batboys like infinity stones at this point lol

Tim is meant to be Jason's age or even a bit older than him in the Arkhamverse as far as I recall.

Edit: Nevermid, I read it as Tim being 18. Speedreading is bad for your health xD

[kaimaciel]

Surprising Spoilers for 3 JOKERS #2 from Reddit

https://i.redd.it/8hr7l2csm7p51.png

Honestly, I'm dreading the DickBabs shippers. It's gonna be the whole "Jason stole Dicks friends" debacle all over again with Barbara. And it's not like it's going to last.

[Sergard]

Seeley in that Batman Eternal issue already set up the two being romantically attracted to each other with Babs basically making a pass at him and Jason hesitantly turning her down. Now Johns here has the two make out when Jason is just wearing a towel. Sure, it was probably in the moment kind of thing, but it is now firmly established the two are very attracted to one another. This will continued to be explored in the future for sure even if this story isn't canon, but given its massive success I'd be surprised if it isn't in canon in some form.

How about we wait until Three Jokers is finished to have a clear picture how the panel is meant? Batman Eternal was Seeley's thing and this here is Geoff Johns'. Seeley and Johns don't necessarily need to have the same idea. If writers would have really liked to explore Jason and Barbara, they would have done it by now - but so far Red Hood and Batgirl writers have stuck to other characters. It's very, very doubtful, that their perspective will change after reading Three Jokers, even if the title is a massive success.

Like Aahz said, Dick and Helena hooked up before she was part of the BoP. That happened before the BoP book even came out. So that isn't a great example. Also I've never heard of anyone describing Birds of Prey as Dick's harem before. I mean Roy's hooked up with more members of the BoP than Dick has I believe. The problem with Barbara is how they just use her as the default love interest for the Batman family or extended family. It just comes across as kind of gross when you have her be with across different media Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, and Luke. Give her some romantic partners that are beyond this already. It would be like if Dick's only love interests were Barbara, Helena, Selina, Harley, Stephanie, and so on. It would be awful.

But I'm not a fan of mixing up the love interests between characters that operate more like family. I'd never want to date my brother's ex-girlfriend or ex-wife. It just creates needless drama in my opinion, but I understand some people love that kind of drama in media/fiction. I mean I don't think Jason fans would like it if a writer thought having Artemis and Dick start a romance was a good idea. There are plenty of characters in DC where you don't need family members stepping on each others toes, imo.

I agree that it would be better for Barbara to date outside the batfamily. Neither Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim or any other member of the batfamily is a good choice for her. But I disagree with the statement of Barbara being "passed around". She's not an object, especially not in Three Jokers. Jason Fabok has made it clear that Barbara is the heart of the story. She is as much a main character as Jason and Bruce if not even more. Neither Jason nor Barbara are reduced to the part of the love interest.

As already said, I don't like Jason and Barbara as a couple - but I also don't like Bruce, Dick, Tim, etc. But this has nothing to do with Barbara being Dick's or Luke's ex-girlfriend. I don't see the chemistry, that's the reason - and it's the same reason for Bruce, Dick, Tim, etc. The characters just don't match. But I can understand why Barbara and Jason have an emotional moment together in Three Jokers - which has nothing to do with physical attraction or romance.

And with all respect: I don't care if Dick Grayson fans want to complain that Jason takes away from Dick's history because this here has nothing to do with Dick (the writer isn't even really interested in Jason as a character but the overall topic of trauma), neither does it take anything away from Dick. God knows I'm tired of this fan hypocrisy. When Dick Grayson writers take away stuff from other characters' history so that Dick Grayson can benefit, it's completely okay - not a single Dick Grayson fan complains that some other character suffers because of this favoritism. But God forbid, other characters interact with people that Dick has met first. Dick Grayson was introduced in 1940!!! Of course he's met many people before Jason or other characters even existed. But that doesn't mean that all these people are Dick's property.

[Konja7]

I've already said it in the Three Jokers thread: This is not a romantic kiss that will result in a relationship but a comforting one that was born out of the moment. Judging by this panel, neither Barbara nor Jason are reduced as a character so that the other can benefit. That's not something I can say about certain other character constellations in DC comics.

And why exactly is Barbara "passed around"? In the meanwhile Dick Grayson had relationships with Barbara and Helena - who are both Birds of Prey members - and no one is complaining about that. I've even seen people calling Birds of Prey Dick's "harem" while celebrating Dick as a "Sexgod". Why are female characters shamed and male characters praised for the same thing?

And no, I don't ship Barbara and Jason. Neither do I ship Barbara with any member of the batfamily. Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim - all of them aren't good choices.

Although there is a issue of sexism from some fans for this topic (I just need to enter in 4chan to see that), I don't think this is the case for most people in this forum.

I think Barbara "passed around" between Batfamily members is weird, because she is the default love interest of the Batfamily. I guess it is because she is the only really important female character in the Batfamily (for most writers), but it is still weird.

[dietrich]

Honestly, I'm dreading the DickBabs shippers. It's gonna be the whole "Jason stole Dicks friends" debacle all over again with Barbara. And it's not like it's going to last.

IT be fair it's not like it's main continuity and like other's have said they've done it before with Tim and Bruce.

The only valid complaint is the issue of writers multi teasing Babs within the Batfam which lets face is as bad as what they do with Bruce's love Interests and his son's.

Or making Dick into a stripper or having Midnighter recognise him by his butt. Objectification it seems is equal opportunities for DC.

I personally was curious and I'm still gonna check the issue out.

[RedBird]

Welp.

If that panel is what I think it is. All I can say is, at least he's still not the worst 'Jason', that Babs has been with as of late. Jason Bard anyone? lol

Judging by this panel, neither Barbara nor Jason are reduced as a character so that the other can benefit. That's not something I can say about certain other character constellations in DC comics.

Not all that fond of this ship for various reasons, and hard to judge from the panel, but yeah, I just hope after all that hype around Barbara and Jason in this book, that they don't reduce her role from here on, and visa versa, seems unlikely anyway given how short the series is and the fact that they are both central characters here. I'm just still worried about the whole Jason as the final Joker theory. Assuming this is real and confirmed, the thing everyone guessed would happen months ago, who knows what other 'obvious' things are bound to happen.

[Korath]

I knew it.
Welp, seems like Johns was talking about Jason Todd in DDC after all.

Where ? I don't remember Jason being mentionned in DDC ?

[Zaresh]

Where ? I don't remember Jason being mentionned in DDC ?

Didn't Bruce mentioned Babs being with some Jason in... issue 8 or 9, I think? Or maybe I'm mixing that book sith some other. But I think it was there.

[Badou]

And with all respect: I don't care if Dick Grayson fans want to complain that Jason takes away from Dick's history because this here has nothing to do with Dick (the writer isn't even really interested in Jason as a character but the overall topic of trauma), neither does it take anything away from Dick. God knows I'm tired of this fan hypocrisy. When Dick Grayson writers take away stuff from other characters' history so that Dick Grayson can benefit, it's completely okay - not a single Dick Grayson fan complains that some other character suffers because of this favoritism. But God forbid, other characters interact with people that Dick has met first. Dick Grayson was introduced in 1940!!! Of course he's met many people before Jason or other characters even existed. But that doesn't mean that all these people are Dick's property.

No need to act so riled up about it. No one is claiming they are Dick's "property", but I don't think you can really argue that Dick didn't get his history stripped from him and that given to characters like Jason or Tim to fill out their character more. That is just the result of shrinking the DC timeline where DC wants to have these Robin characters fill some niche and characters like Dick who have been around since the 1940s will suffer from it. It's unavoidable. That doesn't mean they can't interact with other characters but you don't need to diminish one relationship in favor of another is my main point. A Jason/Babs romance damages the Dick/Babs romance because of Dick and Jason's relationship, same with Bruce/Babs, or having a Tim be the one that created the Teen Titans or deaging characters from Dick's generation to better fit in with Tim's gen undermines Dick's own past stories. Because of Dick's position of being around for so long he doesn't really "take" from other characters in that way unless you have a list of examples I don't know about.

That is the issue. Not that they are just interacting with each other. No one is complaining that a Starfire or Cyborg being off in space interacting with Azrael or a Jessica is undermining Dick's character. Because their history isn't being effected nor is their relationship being damaged from it. When a Starfire and Roy were given to Jason to be his "responsibility" after Dick abandoned them or whatever that is treating characters like property to be passed around. I wasn't a fan of it. Then you have a Artemis and Bizarro that don't have a connection with any Batman family members so it is a completely fresh set of relationships for Jason that doesn't hurt anyone. That is a great way to fill out a character more without lowering someone else, or pre-New 52 when Jason and Donna had their brief relationship/friendship that never felt like it undercut Dick's own friendship with Donna. There are ways to build up a character's connections and relationship without the need to damage those of other closely associated characters.

Also you can call it hypocrisy, but you better be looking into a mirror too when you say that too. You would 100% be upset if Artemis was made into a romantic partner for Dick or if Dick became best friends with Bizarro. Same if Dick somehow was given the All Caste. You should be upset at those things because that isn't good writing. Though you seem to have issues with Dick as a character and his fans, so it would be best if I leave the discussion there probably.

[Konja7]

Didn't Bruce mentioned Babs being with some Jason in... issue 8 or 9, I think? Or maybe I'm mixing that book sith some other. But I think it was there.

I think you mean a story in Detective Comics #1000. Yeah. Johns wrote that.

[Zaresh]

I think you mean a story in Detective Comics #1000. Yeah. Johns wrote that.

Aaahh, right. It was tec. My mistake, sorry :_D

[Badou]

I think you mean a story in Detective Comics #1000. Yeah. Johns wrote that.

I completely forgot about that. I remember people wondering if it was Jason Todd or Jason Bard because it was unclear, but maybe Johns was setting something up with Jason and Babs all the way back then.

[Pohzee]

Not to brigade here as a Dick fan, but I want to give my two cents:

I don't take issue with this issue because I think that Jason is "taking" from Dick. Nor do I think that Jason is really "earning" anything here. I would like to consider relationships to be meaningful interactions, not points to a characters sheet or whatever. And with their established histories, I think that Barbara/Jason is wrong a gross in a lot of ways.

The fact that Barbara already has previously been in a relationship with Dick, long and important enough to nearly lead to marriage, makes it a bit odd that she would hook up with Jason given the pseudo-brother dynamic that has developed around the Robins. There's nothing morally wrong with dating an ex's relative, but it is a bit odd. This is especially true given the age difference between Dick and Jason. I know current comics prefer to play Jason as closer to Dick in age but realistically it only makes sense that Jason was a child as Robin at the Barbara had been active for several years as Batgirl. And again there's nothing wrong with age gaps in relationships, so its a bit weird.

I know that I would be very weirded out of someone I grew up with and was close with as a you adult ended up hooking up with my little brother who was a minor when we first met.

Obviously these are fictional characters, ideas and not real people, so real life doesn't necessarily apply to them. Things can be more flexible to serve a story. And maybe I'm just a prude. But I think it is weird and uncomfortable. Not as a Dick fan. I don't care that he's not with Barbara or that Jason is "taking her away." Just like I'm not upset when Barbara dates Jason Bard in her own comic. Or even Batwing really. I just think that is super weird and kinda creepy

[Rac7d*]

It’s not a dick babs thing, it’s a stop passing her around what is suppose to be a family kind of thing
It’s kind of gross