Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2020

[Zaresh]

One thing I always wanted in the Arkham series, especially when it expanded into Gotham City, was the ability to help random Gotham citizens. Not just NPCs that are part of a mission, I mean to be roaming or patrolling the city, and randomly coming across crimes in progress. Since this game is all about taking up the mantle and the legacy of the Batman, you can have it so that the more you take time to help people, the more your reputation grows. So something similar to Red Dead Redemption.

Any particular Witcher 3-like elements you'd like to see?

Well, a lived city, for starters. Then, the fact that you can develop your characters, and the feel of exploration and discovering. I love rpgs, and I love coming across small stories that I can unravel completing sidequest and the like. I could be fine with a RDR2-like game too, but for some reason The Witcher 3 came to my mind when I was thinking about how I would hope the game to feel like. Something with a world more alive than any plain GTA-esque game.

[RedBird]

Well, a lived city, for starters. Then, the fact that you can develop your characters, and the feel of exploration and discovering. I love rpgs, and I love coming across small stories that I can unravel completing sidequest and the like. I could be fine with a RDR2-like game too, but for some reason The Witcher 3 came to my mind when I was thinking about how I would hope the game to feel like. Something with a world more alive than any plain GTA-esque game.

Good choices, and considering that GK is set to be an action RPG just as Witcher 3 was, I also hope that it has a similar feel. I too really enjoy the smaller stories in RPGs.
Also just for clarification, I didn't intend to imply that I want the game to be more GTA-like with that Red Dead Redemption comparison, just that I would like something similar to just that one particular gameplay mechanic in RDR that allowed you to help random citizens with the specific result being rewarded with points towards your reputation. I believe Witcher 3 had a similar sort of deal, where you could help people attacked by bandits, but (and correct me if I'm wrong) those rewarded the player with XP or mainly bonus loot, and whilst XP sounds fine, I don't think I would want the citizens of Gotham to empty their pockets for the vigilante saving them.

[Zaresh]

Good choices, and considering that GK is set to be an action RPG just as Witcher 3 was, I also hope that it has a similar feel. I too really enjoy the smaller stories in RPGs.
Also just for clarification, I didn't intend to imply that I want the game to be more GTA-like with that Red Dead Redemption comparison, just that I would like something similar to just that one particular gameplay mechanic in RDR that allowed you to help random citizens with the specific result being rewarded with points towards your reputation. I believe Witcher 3 had a similar sort of deal, where you could help people attacked by bandits, but (and correct me if I'm wrong) those rewarded the player with XP or bonus loot, and whilst XP sounds fine, I don't think I would want the citizens of Gotham to empty their pockets for the vigilante saving them.

I remember loot, but it could be experience too, I don't remember it that well (it didn't happened often, I think. Edit: I looked into it, they ended up being scripted, not random). Oh, citizens could "drop" info, I guess. Clues and rumours or... Imagine that xD.

The first RDR didn't feel very alive yeah, (it was very much like any GTA up until that time), but the second one does feel like it has an actual world in it, and you can follow the missadventures of lots of npcs in it, so it's a perfectly alright example of what I wish for the game in that regard .

Edit: or like the random encounters in Skyrim (those were actual random and happened relatively often). That could be nice. But I doubt it'd be as deep as that, giving almost every npc a routine and background (it's not like Skyrim was very populated, so it helped).

[RedBird]

I remember loot, but it could be experience too, I don't remember it that well. Oh, citizens could "drop" info, I guess. Clues and rumours or... Imagine that xD.

The first RDR didn't feel very alive yeah, (it was very much like any GTA up until that time), but the second one does feel like it has an actual world in it, and you can follow the missadventures of lots of npcs in it, so it's a perfectly alright example of what I wish for the game in that regard .

Edit: or like the random encounters in Skyriim. That could be nice. But I doubt it'd be so much deep like that, giving almost every npc a routine and background.

Hmmm, honestly I think I actually recall RDR having such random encounters also providing you with 'loot' as well, so maybe it's not quite so different to Witcher 3 after all. XD I suppose such is life in the Wild West or Fantasy Worlds, where good deeds don't go unrewarded.

But yeah, agreed, citizens providing information would be an interesting addition.

Also, in the gameplay for Gotham Knights it showed Alfred conversing with Barbara over the com link as she headed towards the Mr Freeze mission. I think what would also be kind of a neat way to both flesh out the main characters and add more intrigue to each characters path would be conversations over the com links with not only the other three protagonists, but also other DC characters. And have it be so that depending on which character you choose, you can receive messages from different allies/friends. For example if you choose to be Barbara, then you can receive messages and converse with Dinah and/or Helena. Also as a bonus, if there are going to be DLC characters added later down the road, it could be used as a way to weave them into the story and world as well.

[Zaresh]

Hmmm, honestly I think I actually recall RDR having such random encounters also providing you with 'loot' as well, so maybe it's not quite so different to Witcher 3 after all. XD I suppose such is life in the Wild West or Fantasy Worlds, where good deeds don't go unrewarded.

But yeah, agreed, citizens providing information would be an interesting addition.

Also, in the gameplay for Gotham Knights it showed Alfred conversing with Barbara over the com link as she headed towards the Mr Freeze mission. I think what would also be kind of a neat way to both flesh out the main characters and add more intrigue to each characters path would be conversations over the com links with not only the other three protagonists, but also other DC characters. And have it be so that depending on which character you choose, you can receive messages from different allies/friends. For example if you choose to be Barbara, then you can receive messages and converse with Dinah and/or Helena. Also as a bonus, if there are going to be DLC characters added later down the road, it could be used as a way to weave them into the story and world as well.

Ah, that could be nice too. Didn't GTA V have something like that? And Persona 5 uses messages in your in-game smartphone to help you organise your social schedule and develop your social links (or confidents, like the 5th game calls them). And there's the photos that henchmen and villains send to you in the Lego Villains game, when they show themselves doing stuff: it's fun, but it could be helpful in the game too, if it pointed you to crimes being attempted or something like that. And there's the dialogues between teammates that I think are already confirmed the game is going to have, that I guess are like the ones in Mass Effect or The Other Worlds.

[Sergard]

Greater connectivity is not the problem. Greater connectivity is a good thing if you're writing a shared universe. That's how it should be.

The problem is top-down hiearchy. When only Batman can determine the course of the story, and only Batman story can affect the rest while each of the family members are not allowed to grow and affect the other titles including Batman. That is unnatural storytelling and the opposite of organic character driven stories.

For the universe to have both greater connectivity and character-driven, each character must be allowed to affect each other with equal chance. No more top-down pyramidal directive.

We both know this will never happen.

The only characters who win from connectivity are Batman, Nightwing and Robin (Damian Wayne) because they are on top of the hierarchy. And do you know which writers like to misuse Jason's character the most? Batman, Nightwing and Robin writers.

Is it really too much to ask that Jason gets his own independent stories that have nothing to do with the batfamily? Don't get me wrong, I love big families - but DC has successfully ruined the batfamily.

If Jason has to be part of a "universe" within the DC universe than it should be his own universe that focuses on the Outlaws/his family.
I want to read stories where Jason is an organic part of a family(-like) group. And we already have this with the Outlaws (Artemis, Bizarro), Ma Gunn and the Generation Outlaw kids. Jason even has his own dog. And let's be realistic: We'll never have organic stories with Jason as part of the batfamily. Writers won't suddenly change their mind. Tynion is continuing on Batman and Tomasi is currently writing Detective Comics. We've seen in Batman: Pennyworth R.I.P. how they treat Jason's character.

[Restingvoice]

We both know this will never happen.

The only characters who win from connectivity are Batman, Nightwing and Robin (Damian Wayne) because they are on top of the hierarchy. And do you know which writers like to misuse Jason's character the most? Batman, Nightwing and Robin writers.

Is it really too much to ask that Jason gets his own independent stories that have nothing to do with the batfamily? Don't get me wrong, I love big families - but DC has successfully ruined the batfamily.

If Jason has to be part of a "universe" within the DC universe than it should be his own universe that focuses on the Outlaws/his family.
I want to read stories where Jason is an organic part of a family(-like) group. And we already have this with the Outlaws (Artemis, Bizarro), Ma Gunn and the Generation Outlaw kids. Jason even has his own dog. And let's be realistic: We'll never have organic stories with Jason as part of the batfamily. Writers won't suddenly change their mind. Tynion is continuing on Batman and Tomasi is currently writing Detective Comics. We've seen in Batman: Pennyworth R.I.P. how they treat Jason's character.

Nightwing and Robin lost 2 years of characterization/character development because of the top-down hierarchy. No one is safe as long as they're using that model, and if they're not changing it, then they'll just have to continue not getting my money.

[Aahz]

Nightwing and Robin lost 2 years of characterization/character development because of the top-down hierarchy. No one is safe as long as they're using that model, and if they're not changing it, then they'll just have to continue not getting my money.

But they also got some good stuff out the connection, both had bigger roles (or at least good appearances and showings) in crossovers and Thomasi has written a lot of good Batman and Robin team ups.

When it comes to good appearances for Jason the list pretty short (especially opposed to the issues where he is basically written as an idiot).

[Sergard]

Nightwing and Robin lost 2 years of characterization/character development because of the top-down hierarchy. No one is safe as long as they're using that model, and if they're not changing it, then they'll just have to continue not getting my money.

Dick Grayson already has 80 years of characterization/character development. These 2 years won't matter - especially because writers can just ignore the Ric era. He had amnesia. That's all. Now he has his memories back and writers can use him again as the best leader, hottest guy, best martial artist, best detective, best spy, best Robin, better than Batman, better than anybody else in the batfamily, best whatever in the DC universe.

Damian is protected. He's the blood son and current Robin. I bet with Dick's return, Damian will also be back to his old self. If anything, the whole story with Damian will probably only make Bruce look bad. I even doubt that Damian will have to face any consequences. Writers will just play "He's a kid"-card. Judging by the solicitation for Detective Comics, Tomasi handles Damian's fallout with Bruce (and in true Tomasi fashion, he's using other batfamily members as fodder for his Bruce & Damian story - just like in Batman & Robin):

DETECTIVE COMICS #1032
written by PETER J. TOMASI
art and cover by BRAD WALKER and ANDREW HENNESSY
card stock variant cover by LEE BERMEJO
ON SALE 12/8/20
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
CARD STOCK VARIANT COVER $4.99 US
Father vs. son round two! Batman and Damian Wayne are once again butting heads after Bruce uncovers the missing Black Casebook pages in the clutches of his estranged son. But when the notorious Hush captures the entire Bat-Family, the Dark Knight and the former Boy Wonder must put aside their differences to help Nightwing, Batgirl, Signal, Orphan, Red Hood, and Batwoman survive!

So in the end, the only thing that really happened was you saving some money.

[Aahz]

Dick Grayson already has 80 years of characterization/character development. These 2 years won't matter - especially because writers can just ignore the Ric era. He had amnesia. That's all.

And the blame for this going on for so long is probably more with the Nightwing editors/writers as with the Batfamily Hirachy, I think if they really had wanted they could have probably dealed with the Fallout from Batman #50 in a way that would have brought Dick back to normal much faster or would have had less impact than giving him amnesia.
And that imo the same for most other occasion where his book was derailed by an event, cross over ect.

[Konja7]

We both know this will never happen.

The only characters who win from connectivity are Batman, Nightwing and Robin (Damian Wayne) because they are on top of the hierarchy. And do you know which writers like to misuse Jason's character the most? Batman, Nightwing and Robin writers.

Is it really too much to ask that Jason gets his own independent stories that have nothing to do with the batfamily? Don't get me wrong, I love big families - but DC has successfully ruined the batfamily.

If Jason has to be part of a "universe" within the DC universe than it should be his own universe that focuses on the Outlaws/his family.
I want to read stories where Jason is an organic part of a family(-like) group. And we already have this with the Outlaws (Artemis, Bizarro), Ma Gunn and the Generation Outlaw kids. Jason even has his own dog. And let's be realistic: We'll never have organic stories with Jason as part of the batfamily. Writers won't suddenly change their mind. Tynion is continuing on Batman and Tomasi is currently writing Detective Comics. We've seen in Batman: Pennyworth R.I.P. how they treat Jason's character.

It is likely too much to ask, because the Batfamily is the only thing that DC care about Jason (they will likely disregard all the stories on his comic when a new writer take control over him).

To be fair, the Batfamily is a protection for Jason too. He is a popular character, but his comic isn't a really good seller anymore. So, the Batfamily (and Jason's complicated relationship with them) is one of the reasons why DC won't send the character to the limbo.

[Restingvoice]

Dick Grayson already has 80 years of characterization/character development. These 2 years won't matter - especially because writers can just ignore the Ric era. He had amnesia. That's all. Now he has his memories back and writers can use him again as the best leader, hottest guy, best martial artist, best detective, best spy, best Robin, better than Batman, better than anybody else in the batfamily, best whatever in the DC universe.

Damian is protected. He's the blood son and current Robin. I bet with Dick's return, Damian will also be back to his old self. If anything, the whole story with Damian will probably only make Bruce look bad. I even doubt that Damian will have to face any consequences. Writers will just play "He's a kid"-card. Judging by the solicitation for Detective Comics, Tomasi handles Damian's fallout with Bruce (and in true Tomasi fashion, he's using other batfamily members as fodder for his Bruce & Damian story - just like in Batman & Robin):



So in the end, the only thing that really happened was you saving some money.

Yeah? That's just how it goes? Story bad no buy story good buy.

No, but I get it. Less favorited character means less chance to get him right. We can sorta say that Good Guy Red Hood is only 9 years old at this point, and even now DC and the fans are still back and forth between him as a hero or villain... so there's fear that they're gonna ruin him... again... maybe forever... but here's the thing...

Is DC actually invested in Jason or not? That's the simple, big question for me, and it applies to every character. If they're good on one story but not on the other, then I'll buy that one. I'm not investing in the other one... and let's say they got nothing for me, then they got nothing from me.

From what I've seen, in general, they still want to, they just suck at the details, so then the solution is simple: cherry picking. Gotham Nights and Titans Together seems good, so let's pick those. Batfamily story if bad, then don't. The main Red Hood comic, if it's good keep following until they're not, then quit, then pick it up again once it get good again, buying and playing Gotham Knights while we're at it.

Old fans say they need to keep reading because they're already too invested in it, if they quit buying now then "what have I been doing all this time", and if they quit, then maybe DC will actually quit producing stuff for me and I will no longer see my faves again... but in actuality, they're dangling people by a thread, and I'm not a fish.

So that's why, if there's a danger sign, let's get out and wait without paying. It's these people who have to prove themselves to us.

[Zaresh]

Brief notification. I've just updated the fic table with a dozen of old-new works. As usual, to find them in the link, sort by recording date > descending. Link here and OP post.

[Jackalope89]

Brief notification. I've just updated the fic table with a dozen of old-new works. As usual, to find them in the link, sort by recording date > descending. Link here and OP post.

Honestly, it could use a search function allowing the person to narrow down tags of what they want or don't want.

[Zaresh]

Honestly, it could use a search function allowing the person to narrow down tags of what they want or don't want.

It could, but I can't find any function that allows me to organize it that way. I want to share a list of tags for several of the columns so that you can use your browser's own search function with them. I guess I can put some of those lists already, and then update them with every new tag each time I add a new onw. Give me a few days and I'll have it ready.

Edit: if any of you know a better place where to make this sort of tables that would allow find and cross out by tags in a row or column, I can always move those links there