Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2020

[Sergard]

This is beyond radical. You are pretty much asking to reboot him completely and turn him into a different character to the point that I wonder why would you even call him Jason Todd and not make a new character instead.

Jason is fine and he certainly not a mess in need of reboot. He just need a fresh blood who would do something interesting with him. It's really that simple.

I don't see how this would turn him into a different character. All the impulses would still be there - his biological parents, his life on the streets, a mentor, his torture, death and resurrection, etc. You'd still have the same personality in the end. If said mentor is a furry or not, if Jason's sidekick identity is called Robin or not and if said murderer is a clown or not is completely irrelevant.

What would really be the big loss?

Jason is fine - but everything around him is a mess, especially the batfamily but also larger parts of the DC universe.

In my eyes, Jason needs more than a fresh blood who does something interesting with him. This fresh blood also needs DC editors to allow them to write their take on the character without interruptions by other writers - be it events or to a lesser extent contradicting or unfavorable guest appearances in other titles. Stuff that, by default, wouldn't happen with Jason in his own universe, and will - without a shadow of a doubt - happen again in main-continuity.

[Konja7]

This is beyond radical. You are pretty much asking to reboot him completely and turn him into a different character to the point that I wonder why would you even call him Jason Todd and not make a new character instead.

Jason is fine and he certainly not a mess in need of reboot. He just need a fresh blood who would do something interesting with him. It's really that simple.

To be fair, characters like Ma Gunn, Willis Todd, the All-Caste, Su sisters, Crux, Generation Outlaw will likely be forgotten for new writers. Or even retconned when DC wants to tell Jason's origin again.

Not just because DC seems to want to ignore Lobdell's work in general, but new writers usually don't use ideas of previous writers.

However, Jason being Robin and his mentor being Batman won't change. All the drama around Jason's strained relationship with Bruce is one of the reason why Jason is so popular.


I wonder if Jason will mantain his solo. DC is suffering from many changes, we don't even exactly know what will happen in January (and the Future State event). Also, it is possible many things change in March.

To be clear, Jason won't be in the limbo, since he is pretty popular, but it is possible he ended up in a Batfamily book (or something like that).

[Zaresh]

I don't see how this would turn him into a different character. All the impulses would still be there - his biological parents, his life on the streets, a mentor, his torture, death and resurrection, etc. You'd still have the same personality in the end. If said mentor is a furry or not, if Jason's sidekick identity is called Robin or not and if said murderer is a clown or not is completely irrelevant.

What would really be the big loss?

Jason is fine - but everything around him is a mess, especially the batfamily but also larger parts of the DC universe.

In my eyes, Jason needs more than a fresh blood who does something interesting with him. This fresh blood also needs DC editors to allow them to write their take on the character without interruptions by other writers - be it events or to a lesser extent contradicting or unfavorable guest appearances in other titles. Stuff that, by default, wouldn't happen with Jason in his own universe, and will - without a shadow of a doubt - happen again in main-continuity.

I have to agree with Rise. If you strip Jason off all his story and links with the Batman, you may as well write a straight new different character with a different name as well. You're basically erasing his whole history. It's not much different than transform him into a new character with different personality and the same name, which is more or less what Morrison did, and why I always complain about him not straight creating a new character for what he used Jason there.

I mean, it's a matter of opinions and likes and dislikes (edit: I'm not implying that my opinion is a fact, or anything like that). I do think the batfam needs a deep reform and working out what they want to do with their characters and how to treat every one of them. But, for me, too, this is beyond radical. This is straight creating a new character. And if you want to cut any tie with Batman, you need to create and write him under another publisher; because as long as Batman is the de facto center piece of the DC (and he is) everyone who becomes remotely popular is going to be tied to him eventually.

In fact, many characters can use that Batman popularity to boost their own. Look and Deathstroke. He was an already popular character, but now that he's tied to Batman? He's even more. It's unfair, but as long as they're written in DC, is what's going to happen.

That being said, if you people know of a story and character like Jason Todd outside DC, I'd love to know about them. I've got a soft spot for that stuff, as you probably know already, and am always open to try new reads.

Edit: if we are going to do teams with the bats, I want him with Kate or Tim. Or even both. I think their dynamic could work pretty well if they're written as they should.

Edit: btw, I'm actually looking forward to what they're going to do with the new writer. Also, I don't think the Lobdell era is going to be forgotten: he brought in a lot of elements that fans like, even when they disliked some others. I know of a few new readers that got to know about Jason as his own character outside his story with Bruce as an antagonist that actually liked him here despite being indifferent to him before. And the Gotham Knights game info teased that they may use some elements from his background with the All-Caste... or something mystical, or magical. So, yeah: I don't think it's not going to fade soon. Not to mention that Artemis is now linked to him and it's not a small piece of his whole editorial history now.

[Zaresh]

Chris Samnee posted this pretty picture in his inktober batman themed thread, in twitter. I think you guys may like it .

Ej-1kUaXkAAJFwB.jpg

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I don't see how this would turn him into a different character. All the impulses would still be there - his biological parents, his life on the streets, a mentor, his torture, death and resurrection, etc. You'd still have the same personality in the end. If said mentor is a furry or not, if Jason's sidekick identity is called Robin or not and if said murderer is a clown or not is completely irrelevant.

What would really be the big loss?

Jason is fine - but everything around him is a mess, especially the batfamily but also larger parts of the DC universe.

In my eyes, Jason needs more than a fresh blood who does something interesting with him. This fresh blood also needs DC editors to allow them to write their take on the character without interruptions by other writers - be it events or to a lesser extent contradicting or unfavorable guest appearances in other titles. Stuff that, by default, wouldn't happen with Jason in his own universe, and will - without a shadow of a doubt - happen again in main-continuity.

It wouldn't be Jason anymore. For better or worse, what makes Jason, well, Jason, are his connections with Batman and how those helped him to shape into something new that is not just a lite Dick Grayson nor an angrier Bruce. Jason is the sum of its parts, take one away and then he wouldn't be Jason anymore.

What you're proposing is a fanfiction character that is ripping Jason off by being similar, but not the same.

[Sergard]

I have to agree with Rise. If you strip Jason off all his story and links with the Batman, you may as well write a straight new different character with a different name as well. You're basically erasing his whole history. It's not much different than transform him into a new character with different personality and the same name, which is more or less what Morrison did, and why I always complain about him not straight creating a new character for what he used Jason there.

I don't want to sound cheeky but Morrison wouldn't have happened if Jason had his own universe (Or Battle for the Cowl for that matter and some other stuff that I'd rather forget.)
It also wouldn't be the first version of Jason that didn't meet Bruce. It's rare but neither Father Todd from the Flashpoint universe, nor Jason from Gotham City Garage ever met Batman. Bombshells Jason met Batwoman instead of Batman (I'm not sure if Batman even exists in that universe).

I don't think it would erase Jason's whole history by exchanging some people (mainly Bruce and Joker because Jason doesn't have any deep/consistent relationships with anyone else in the batfamily - so what does it matter if those characters exist or not?) with new characters who fulfill the same purpose - but better because there's only one writer (at a time) for all of them. One of the biggest problems with DC is that too many writers write the same character. Too many cooks spoil the broth. Too many writers ruin the character/universe. It's already hard to find organic stories and character relationships in the DC universe but Batman especially doesn't really feel like a character anymore but more like an empty vessel for whatever kind of story/personality the writer wants to create.

I mean, it's a matter of opinions and likes and dislikes (edit: I'm not implying that my opinion is a fact, or anything like that). I do think the batfam needs a deep reform and working out what they want to do with their characters and how to treat every one of them. But, for me, too, this is beyond radical. This is straight creating a new character. And if you want to cut any tie with Batman, you need to create and write him under another publisher; because as long as Batman is the de facto center piece of the DC (and he is) everyone who becomes remotely popular is going to be tied to him eventually.

To be honest, I don't think this deep reform is ever going to happen. As far as I see (and I think you'll agree), DC stories are strongly influenced by character popularity and writers pushing their personal favorites (sometimes at the expense of other characters). This is just one more reason why it's so hard to find good stories and why I don't normally look forward to batfamily stuff.

Most remotely popular characters aren't really tied to him though. Sure, most characters meet and team-up with Batman (or fight him) at some point but that's something else than having Batman as a "father" figure.

In fact, many characters can use that Batman popularity to boost their own. Look and Deathstroke. He was an already popular character, but now that he's tied to Batman? He's even more. It's unfair, but as long as they're written in DC, is what's going to happen.

I'm more interested in good stories than popularity. There are many good DC stories that sold low - and there are many bad DC stories that sold high.
I also don't consider Deathstroke tied to Batman. Although I do believe it is better for Deathstroke as a character to have confrontations with Batman than with Teen Titans or Titans. It's just weird seeing such an old guy fighting kids, teenagers and young adults. But that's a different topic.

[Zaresh]

I don't want to sound cheeky but Morrison wouldn't have happened if Jason had his own universe (Or Battle for the Cowl for that matter and some other stuff that I'd rather forget.)
It also wouldn't be the first version of Jason that didn't meet Bruce. It's rare but neither Father Todd from the Flashpoint universe, nor Jason from Gotham City Garage ever met Batman. Bombshells Jason met Batwoman instead of Batman (I'm not sure if Batman even exists in that universe).

I don't think it would erase Jason's whole history by exchanging some people (mainly Bruce and Joker because Jason doesn't have any deep/consistent relationships with anyone else in the batfamily - so what does it matter if those characters exist or not?) with new characters who fulfill the same purpose - but better because there's only one writer (at a time) for all of them. One of the biggest problems with DC is that too many writers write the same character. Too many cooks spoil the broth. Too many writers ruin the character/universe. It's already hard to find organic stories and character relationships in the DC universe but Batman especially doesn't really feel like a character anymore but more like an empty vessel for whatever kind of story/personality the writer wants to create.

You change the mentor to Jason for a new character, it hurts Jason's whole drama. Few will care about Jason's origin story (this being since he stole the tyres to his death and resurrection) because few are going to be invested in the conflict with a brand new mentor that people know nothing about. And if you use another already known character, like Kate, you're going to have to change their story to fit Jason and his conflict there: no fan of this designated character will like it. You don't want the conflict there? Then you're changing Jason's whole origin, because there's conflict since the beginning of the post-crisis Jason in his story, conflict that helped shape him as we know him now (and shape how we feel about him). It works in an elseworld, because those are new characters, with new backgrounds, sometimes new personalities, and there are no expectations (which is wonderful, a reason why elseworld are great). They retain certain traits, a feel that makes us recognize them: but they're new. Father Todd isn't Jason, it's a big what if, or more like a nod actually: his story, his strugglings, his personality are most probably different. Maybe not radically, but different (we didn't see much of him really: it was more like a cameo). Bombshells Jason worked, because it was adapting his whole background and origin to a new elseworld with different players and elements in the story (he really was Jason); but it wouldn't work in the main universe because those characters are tied to their own backgrounds, their stories and expectations. It would be like forcing a character that doesn't belong in a fandom to belong in that fandom. Kind of like what they did with Harley Queen in the Birds of Prey movie

Mmm... What makes Jason, Jason? He was the sidekick of a bigger-than-life vigilante-hero, who died and came back, and now he's an anti-hero that is willed to cross certain lines, his own man with his own set of rules and moral code. That defines Jason; but that could describe other characters. Bucky in Marvel, for example (if we're a bit too loose with the death bit. Well, technically, Bucky has died now again. Whatever. Events, cubes...). You let out the batman ties entirely? You need to tie him to another big, famous mentor figure (in the DCU) to work (in the DCU). Edit: A reason why the people that were drawn to his life, like Talia and the League, and with them the All-Caste, ended meeting him. Why would Talia be interested in (for example) The Question's dead sidekick? Who would kill Jason that would drive Jason to a psychotic break like the one that he had in his way to and during Under the Hood? Mmm, it could work, maybe, but... Tough fit.

To be honest, I don't think this deep reform is ever going to happen. As far as I see (and I think you'll agree), DC stories are strongly influenced by character popularity and writers pushing their personal favorites (sometimes at the expense of other characters). This is just one more reason why it's so hard to find good stories and why I don't normally look forward to batfamily stuff.

Most remotely popular characters aren't really tied to him though. Sure, most characters meet and team-up with Batman (or fight him) at some point but that's something else than having Batman as a "father" figure.

I'm more interested in good stories than popularity. There are many good DC stories that sold low - and there are many bad DC stories that sold high.
I also don't consider Deathstroke tied to Batman. Although I do believe it is better for Deathstroke as a character to have confrontations with Batman than with Teen Titans or Titans. It's just weird seeing such an old guy fighting kids, teenagers and young adults. But that's a different topic.

Most popular characters are tied to him now. Superman? Bruce is his best pal (this one was the first, long, long ago, when he was the bigger of the two). And Wonder Woman is his best femfriend. Harley? She's all rooting for Batman and is everywhere; even as an ally. Joker is his main villain. Flash, or Barry, has been tied to Bruce personal life now by way of Flashpoint Thomas' Batman. Now even the lanterns had used Batman in their stories, when the lantern part of the DCU is one of the most isolated parts of the DCU besides all the Aquaman stuff (and the Marvel fam). But Aquaman and Cap Marvel aren't popular. I guess Green Arrow is still safe.

And now Deathstroke, a classic Titan's villain, is always presented as a batman rogue. A Batman Rogue. Every time. Probably why he appeared, in the Arkham Knight game, for example. And he's popular again. It's bullcrap, but it is happening.

Good stories is what we all want, but when we're also lucky, good stories also become popular, and that means eventually tieing them to Batman. And if we're not lucky and they don't become popular, they die soon and we can't read more of them. It's a monkey's paw.

Unless we get our stuff together and start treating the characters in this franchise with some coherence, and stop using them as foil to others, dismissing what's being done in those character's own books and stories, and with some direction to follow (because it's not fun when your character makes you break your neck every time you read him in a different book).

_{Peoples of DC, please, just write stories with Jason and let him life his own stories. I don't mind if you make him meet other bats, or work with them, or even the Bat, briefly. Just let them be Jason's stories deep down, about Jason or about the people he crosses his path with. Also, please, no more Joker, or Ra's: I'm tired of Ra's too.}

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

they really should think about giving Jason some kind of disfigurement/scar along with that Rogue hairdo since other media likes to do some variation of it, not every Robin needs to be pretty.
DBD31E70-15A1-4866-BF3C-BC0119E432E2.jpg

[Konja7]

they really should think about giving Jason some kind of disfigurement/scar along with that Rogue hairdo since other media likes to do some variation of it, not every Robin needs to be pretty.
DBD31E70-15A1-4866-BF3C-BC0119E432E2.jpg

I like Jason to be pretty.

I don't really think Jason needs a notable scar.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

they really should think about giving Jason some kind of disfigurement/scar along with that Rogue hairdo since other media likes to do some variation of it, not every Robin needs to be pretty.
DBD31E70-15A1-4866-BF3C-BC0119E432E2.jpg

Ew. No way. If anything, Jason is the one Bat that is justified to not have any scars due to his experience with the Lazarus Pit.

Besides, giving notorious scar or a disfigurement to the one Robin that comes from the streets and is widely considered as the "black sheep" creates some very unflattering implications.

You know, like how in two of your three examples Jason is a psychotic villain/murderer.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Ew. No way. If anything, Jason is the one Bat that is justified to not have any scars due to his experience with the Lazarus Pit.

Besides, giving notorious scar or a disfigurement to the one Robin that comes from the streets and is widely considered as the "black sheep" creates some very unflattering implications.

You know, like how in two of your three examples Jason is a psychotic villain/murderer.

fair enough, maybe it's just the Zuko fan in me, particularly that Hush one, lol

[Zaresh]

they really should think about giving Jason some kind of disfigurement/scar along with that Rogue hairdo since other media likes to do some variation of it, not every Robin needs to be pretty.
DBD31E70-15A1-4866-BF3C-BC0119E432E2.jpg

Eh, I pass. Too grim, unnecessary, and then, what's the story behind it? A noticeable scar need it's story behind. If not... well... it comes across as vain for me, at least. It's why it worked in AK, for example. But, in the current DCU? Meh.

Also, I like Jason to be kind of pretty, too. Maybe not a pretty boy like Dick or Tim, but certainly handsome. I'm just that... vain xD.

Now, we could give him a new one in current time, but it needs a story that works the mark. But with medicine and him being a vigilante and that all? Logic dictates he would pass through surgery to fix whatever he does if it's visible enough. It's the most practical for him.

[Sergard]

they really should think about giving Jason some kind of disfigurement/scar along with that Rogue hairdo since other media likes to do some variation of it, not every Robin needs to be pretty.

Then DC should take one of the other Robins.
Jason has already enough baggage to carry.

And just to be clear, I don't mind versions of Jason with a scar like seen above. I even still consider all three of them handsome.
But these are their own versions - the same way as Jason in current continuity is his own version. I'm against mixing things up.

I'm also against changing things about Jason because some batfamily members look too similar. That's not a good reason, especially since Jason is the character with the least interactions with other batfamily members. If you really want more distinct looking Robins in order to keep them apart, then DC should change something about Dick or Tim.

[Vakanai]

they really should think about giving Jason some kind of disfigurement/scar along with that Rogue hairdo since other media likes to do some variation of it, not every Robin needs to be pretty.
DBD31E70-15A1-4866-BF3C-BC0119E432E2.jpg

Where's the 2D/cartoon pic from?

[Zaresh]

Then DC should take one of the other Robins.
Jason has already enough baggage to carry.

And just to be clear, I don't mind versions of Jason with a scar like seen above. I even still consider all three of them handsome.
But these are their own versions - the same way as Jason in current continuity is his own version. I'm against mixing things up.

I'm also against changing things about Jason because some batfamily members look too similar. That's not a good reason, especially since Jason is the character with the least interactions with other batfamily members. If you really want more distinct looking Robins in order to keep them apart, then DC should change something about Dick or Tim.

Didn't Tim have scars in his head at some point? Burns, if I recall, in his nape? Or maybe I'm mixing stuff, as usual.