Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2020

[Rise]

I'd hate if they just outright throw away nearly a decade of character development. Any future series should build upon what the Outlaws did, not start from zero again.

What development? Jason is literally in the same postion he was in the 2011 title. Angry at Batman and fighting the Untitled with his outlaw team.

I didn't say start from zero, but also don't bother continuing the series and start fresh with something new with Jason because he desperately needs it.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

What development? Jason is literally in the same postion he was in the 2011 title. Angry at Batman and fighting the Untitled with his outlaw team.

I didn't say start from zero, but also don't bother continuing the series and start fresh with something new with Jason because he desperately needs it.

So you're just going to ignore the friendships he has made over the years, his newfound role as mentor for Generation O, the fact Ma Gunn is his grandmother or the supporting cast he has developed over the years. But most importantly, the huge character grow he has had over the past decade, he finally moved from being angsty and obsessed with Bruce.

[Sergard]

What development? Jason is literally in the same postion he was in the 2011 title. Angry at Batman and fighting the Untitled with his outlaw team.

I didn't say start from zero, but also don't bother continuing the series and start fresh with something new with Jason because he desperately needs it.

By that definition, Bruce never had any development. He's still fighting crime, especially the Joker, and mourning his parents - the same stuff he did in the 40s.

If we are talking about Jason's position in the batfamily, then I agree. Jason is back to square one. I'd even argue that Jason's position within the batfamily is worse than at the beginning of New52.
Jason pretty much wasted 3 to 4 years of his life making it up to people who simply don't care.

[Rise]

So you're just going to ignore the friendships he has made over the years, his newfound role as mentor for Generation O, the fact Ma Gunn is his grandmother or the supporting cast he has developed over the years. But most importantly, the huge character grow he has had over the past decade, he finally moved from being angsty and obsessed with Bruce.

How did Ma gunn being his grandmother affected Jason in any way? And what supporting cast that got developed? It's only Suzie who went through some changes while Essences and Saru are still the same.

Also, Jason wasn't obsessed and angsty with Batman in the very first arc in the first outlaws series.

By that definition, Bruce never had any development. He's still fighting crime, especially the Joker, and mourning his parents - the same stuff he did in the 40s.

If we are talking about Jason's position in the batfamily, then I agree. Jason is back to square one. I'd even argue that Jason's position within the batfamily is worse than at the beginning of New52.
Jason pretty much wasted 3 to 4 years of his life making it up to people who simply don't care.

Depends on your definition of "development". His goal didn't change, but he definitely isn't the same person he was in the 40s.

Same with Jason who went through some changes from the 80s to 00s. He also went through some rapid "changes" under Lobdell that made him look like bi bipolar before he returned to the same point he stared with. A new writer starting freash doesn't mean "a decade of development" being thrown away because there's nothing much to begin with.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

How did Ma gunn being his grandmother affected Jason in any way? And what supporting cast that got developed? It's only Suzie who went through some changes while Essences and Saru are still the same.

Is giving him another supporting cast and the whole thing about their true relationship is something that can be easily developed into a very interesting plotline by other writers. Ultimately that's the biggest boon from Lobdell's long tenure, there's many plot points and characters than can be explored and expanded upon by other writers. Jason has more elements to work with now that simply going the Bane way and get stuck rehashing UtRH ad infinitum.

Also, Jason wasn't obsessed and angsty with Batman in the very first arc in the first outlaws series.

Exactly.

RHATO was the first time since Jason's resurrection in UtRH that he was allowed to have a different motivation than just getting back at Bruce.

Same with Jason who went through some changes from the 80s to 00s. He also went through some rapid "changes" under Lobdell that made him look like bi bipolar before he returned to the same point he stared with. A new writer starting freash doesn't mean "a decade of development" being thrown away because there's nothing much to begin with.

What's this starting point you are talking about?

Before RHATO Jason was a loner, backstabbing ass that only looked for himself and had no care for any collateral damage his actions could bring.

Now Jason is someone that enjoys working with others, reliable, loyal, and who has mellowed out enough to look for others' well being. He still has a snarky and self-deprecating streak, but that is a core part of who he is, just like being a natural born leader is for Dick or planning ahead for Bruce.

[Zaresh]

I'm sure almost no one wants his story with Roy, Artemis and Bizarro, or with the Su sisters, or with the kids, to be erased. Trying new things is good, but I expect them to use those characters and their built story with Jason to be brought back to the new book at some point, being acknowledged, and not erased. Because it's good for Jason as a character; it brings balance to him, having a cast and a history upon which he can base his new ventures.

The new story could start from a different point, be about a different thing entirely and not start just from where he was when this books ends (wouldn't be odd if Lobdell lets Jason alone again, even if he doesn't break ties with his cast at all. But it all depend* on what editorial wants Jason to be in the future, or what the new writer wants to do with him, if they already have someone for him). But whoever gets to write him, please, please, don't forget his previous history: build on it, use it, acknowledge it. It's good history and those are good elements one can use with his character.

[Rise]

Is giving him another supporting cast and the whole thing about their true relationship is something that can be easily developed into a very interesting plotline by other writers. Ultimately that's the biggest boon from Lobdell's long tenure, there's many plot points and characters than can be explored and expanded upon by other writers. Jason has more elements to work with now that simply going the Bane way and get stuck rehashing UtRH ad infinitum.



Exactly.

RHATO was the first time since Jason's resurrection in UtRH that he was allowed to have a different motivation than just getting back at Bruce.



What's this starting point you are talking about?

Before RHATO Jason was a loner, backstabbing ass that only looked for himself and had no care for any collateral damage his actions could bring.

Now Jason is someone that enjoys working with others, reliable, loyal, and who has mellowed out enough to look for others' well being. He still has a snarky and self-deprecating streak, but that is a core part of who he is, just like being a natural born leader is for Dick or planning ahead for Bruce.

What are you even arguing with me about? You are just repeating what I have said in the beginning.

What development? Jason is literally in the same postion he was in the 2011 title. Angry at Batman and fighting the Untitled with his outlaw team.

I didn't how you twisted my words about how I want a new writer to start freash to I want Jason to return to his older status in pre-flashpoint.

Also, this isn't a development because Lobdell just started his first run with Jason suddenly not caring and already friends with Roy and Kory. He didn't went through some life changes that made him get to that point because he just started with it and with no build up.

I will definitely give Lobdell credits for the way he build up Jason's relationship with Artemis and Bizarro tho because he has done a good job with them (amd while I did enjoy the way he wrote Jason & Roy's friendship, the build up wasn't good).

[Sergard]

Why is Jason's "position" defined by how he thinks of Bruce and the villain he is fighting? This seems like a rather strange and restricted set of parameters. You wouldn't solely define an other character's position by what they think of Jason and their current villain.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Here's a curious pitch for a Bat-family Animated Series

http://www.sodamonkeyent.com/blog/20...-pitched-to-wb





I'm always down for more Batfmaily, but I can't help to feel the pitch is way too close to your average TMNT cartoon.

[AmiMizuno]

I have to ask. Does Jason wearing the Batman logo make him less unique or just showing despite everything he still does love his family.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I have to ask. Does Jason wearing the Batman logo make him less unique or just showing despite everything he still does love his family.

Personally, I'm a firm believer of the latter interpretation. The other feels like a cynical "Glass half empty" outlook.

[Light of Justice]

Here's a curious pitch for a Bat-family Animated Series

http://www.sodamonkeyent.com/blog/20...-pitched-to-wb





I'm always down for more Batfmaily, but I can't help to feel the pitch is way too close to your average TMNT cartoon.

Thank you for the share. Visit the link and read the description. So... sounds like it comes straight from tumblr. Not that I mean it's really a bad thing, but.... Well, I guess it's too hard to capture the complexity of each Robins character on animated series. Description of Jason's running gag actually made me wary.
Although comparing him to Sasuke completely caught me off guard. It never crossed my mind but now I can't help but kinda see the similarities. That means Dick is his Itachi, even though Dick isn't really a great brother to Jason unlike Itachi, especially on Jason's Robin days.
Now I'd like to see fanart of Dick doing Itachi's finger-forehead gesture to Jason. And maybe also to Tim and Damian.

(Although considering the fact that finger-forehead move was used by Damian to drill his fingers into Nobody's skull and instantly kill him, I don't think that gesture is meant to be endearing on DC universe).

Bonus: Is that Batman in boxer? He's so skinny, where's the Bat-abs?

[Jackalope89]

Thank you for the share. Visit the link and read the description. So... sounds like it comes straight from tumblr. Not that I mean it's really a bad thing, but.... Well, I guess it's too hard to capture the complexity of each Robins character on animated series. Description of Jason's running gag actually made me wary.
Although comparing him to Sasuke completely caught me off guard. It never crossed my mind but now I can't help but kinda see the similarities. That means Dick is his Itachi, even though Dick isn't really a great brother to Jason unlike Itachi, especially on Jason's Robin days.
Now I'd like to see fanart of Dick doing Itachi's finger-forehead gesture to Jason. And maybe also to Tim and Damian.

(Although considering the fact that finger-forehead move was used by Damian to drill his fingers into Nobody's skull and instantly kill him, I don't think that gesture is meant to be endearing on DC universe).

Bonus: Is that Batman in boxer? He's so skinny, where's the Bat-abs?

Something I noticed while reading the descriptions; Babs gets along best with Jason. I know during the New52 they got along alright, but its about always been Babs and Dick. Hard to tell if its platonic or moving in other directions with how vague it was.

And besides Sasuke (I admit, after I finished the Naruto manga, I never looked back at the series), Jason was also compared to Zuko. I can see that. Minus shouting "honor!" for a base reason for his actions, that is.

[Light of Justice]

Something I noticed while reading the descriptions; Babs gets along best with Jason. I know during the New52 they got along alright, but its about always been Babs and Dick. Hard to tell if its platonic or moving in other directions with how vague it was.

And besides Sasuke (I admit, after I finished the Naruto manga, I never looked back at the series), Jason was also compared to Zuko. I can see that. Minus shouting "honor!" for a base reason for his actions, that is.

IMO it's definitely platonic, from the concept it implied that Babs will have lovesick feeling to Nightwing and she will have Jason as her talk buddy. So possible girlfriend of Dick, Jason's best buddy, Tim has one sided crush on her and capable to cuddle Damian without losing her limbs or her life. Uh, why does it sound like self-insert reader fic?

Yeah, angry hot guys, love their mother dearly, banished from their own birthlands, had doubt with their morality, only super calm and graceful granpa/uncle can calm them, secretly softie to woman and children, I also can see their similarities. Minus the 'honor', I think it's more Damian's thing than Jason.

[Zaresh]

I would argue against more than a few things about how they picture each character, they sound too much archetypìcal and fanfictioney. But then, it is a fan work, not a pro work; so it wouldn't feel fair, being too critical or hard on them. I mean, they're trying to do something quite ambitious in my eyes, and it doesn't look bad, and this is a hobby and I'm sure they're putting their souls and love in it. I would feel bad if I were to nitpick about how many things I don't like about the description of those characters.