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  1. #7816
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The92Ghost View Post
    That why I believe that MCU will bring in Rogue to depower her quite a bit. Something tells me that Rogue will take at least 40-50% of that power to herself. Let's not forget that the events in MCU are before Rogue getting Captain Marvel's powers. Once they depower her, she will not be so centric and overpowered. She will turn back into the boring character she was after Rogue took her powers and put Rogue at the front centric place. Everything in the MCU will shift and be set for X-Men centric storyline because the Avengers are pretty much done.
    Her movie did OK, and while I know it happened in the comics that would be horrendous way to handle the character. In fact I'd be a fast way for audiences to hate X characters, and Rogue in particular. Just coming in and stealing her powers from her and literal spotlight? This is the Storm topic, so imagine if that happened to her these days. Some new character shows up, takes most of her powers from her, and Storm is left weak and largely irrelevant. How do you think that will go over?

  2. #7817
    Spectacular Member The92Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Her movie did OK, and while I know it happened in the comics that would be horrendous way to handle the character. In fact I'd be a fast way for audiences to hate X characters, and Rogue in particular. Just coming in and stealing her powers from her and literal spotlight? This is the Storm topic, so imagine if that happened to her these days. Some new character shows up, takes most of her powers from her, and Storm is left weak and largely irrelevant. How do you think that will go over?
    This is how things turned into comics, one of the reasons why Rogue and Captain Marvel don't see that much eye to eye. To be honest, I think they will do exactly that and then they will make Carol wake up, just depowered.

    They have to bring balance somehow.

    And this same thing has happened to Storm as well, just for the record. Storm powers were taken away by Forge and later on, they were restored...

  3. #7818

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    Quote Originally Posted by loke13 View Post
    Sorry but when you call one of the most iconic / popular Avenger runs of all time a "hot mess" it's really hard not to come off as disingenuous especially when you fail to provide examples. So exactly what is your criteria for "hot mess"?
    As I said, it's all relative.

    There have been lots of crappy comics from Marvel in the last 15 years now. My favorite Avengers story is Millar's Ultimates I and II.

    Hickman's space war in Avengers was bloated and uninteresting. Other than Sam and Roberto the team were lifeless automatons(which many are also complaining about in his X-Men run). His original characters tended to be plot devices more than characters. You can tell he isn't very interested in these 'heroes'. Vainglorious.

    He was much more interested in the completely sociopathic, Machiavellian Illuminati, which while better than the other book, ultimately amounted to a bleak deterministic circle jerk. God Doom and Battleworld was nonsense and this 'New Marvel' universe courtesy of Franklin and Molecule Man has not been worth all the trouble.

    I think his X run has already exceeded anything he did with the Avengers, though I doubt he will be able to outdue his initial FF run. The small, tight cast that is truly a family allowed him to interject more feeling than his tightly organized and symmetrical plotting usually allows for. I do see shades of that in his Apocalypse and relations, and even the Summers, but that essence is diluted with so much else at play. The FF was polished and concise, and smarty pants Reed let his Sci fi fancies fly free.

    In any case, I think Hickman is a very talented writer at certain formal levels, and he is very clever, but I also think he has blind spots, particularly in terms of warmth and humanity, and those aspects unbalanced his Avengers run and Secret Wars in my opinion to the extent that I consider it a hot mess.

    Some of those same limitations have already alienated some of the X fanbase, myself included to a certain extent(his Storm is lacking so far, and Giant Size wasn't the magnus opus I was hoping for; XoS better be good...). Part of me feels like I already know how his run will end. But I am also intrigued by the scale of his ambition, and intrigued to see exactly what he has in mind for Krakoa.

    It is very interesting, evocative of Morrison's run, but similarly likely fated to be divisive among the fandom in retrospect. It isn't fair he has to split his concepts among a whole roster of writers of such varying skill levels. I do applaud the cohesive continuity across the line(even if it's also a rapacious marketing strategy), but it will never be as good as when Claremont was shepherding/writing the whole line(which I sincerely doubt can ever truly be exceeded or even matched in today's industry), the best mainstream superhero comics run ever.
    Last edited by yogaflame; 10-13-2020 at 11:52 PM.
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  4. #7819
    Spectacular Member The92Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    As I said, it's all relative.

    There have been lots of crappy comics from Marvel in the last 15 years now. My favorite Avengers story is Millar's Ultimates I and II.

    Hickman's space war in Avengers was bloated and uninteresting. Other than Sam and Roberto the team were lifeless automatons(which many are also complaining about in his X-Men run). His original characters tended to be plot devices more than characters. You can tell he isn't very interested in these 'heroes'. Vainglorious.

    He was much more interested in the completely sociopathic, Machiavellian Illuminati, which while better than the other book, ultimately amounted to a bleak deterministic circle jerk. God Doom and Battleworld was nonsense and this 'New Marvel' universe courtesy of Franklin and Molecule Man has not been worth all the trouble.

    I think his X run has already exceeded anything he did with the Avengers, though I doubt he will be able to outdue his initial FF run. The small, tight cast that is truly a family allowed him to interject more feeling than his tightly organized and symmetrical plotting usually allows for. I do see shades of that in his Apocalypse and relations, and even the Summers, but that essence is diluted with so much else at play. The FF was polished and concise, and smarty pants Reed let his Sci fi fancies fly free.

    In any case, I think Hickman is a very talented writer at certain formal levels, and he is very clever, but I also think he has blind spots, particularly in terms of warmth and humanity, and those aspects unbalanced his Avengers run and Secret Wars in my opinion to the extent that I consider it a hot mess.

    Some of those same limitations have already alienated some of the X fanbase, myself included to a certain extent(his Storm is lacking so far, and Giant Size wasn't the magnus opus I was hoping for; XoS better be good...). Part of me feels like I already know how his run will end. But I am also intrigued by the scale of his ambition, and intrigued to see exactly what he has in mind for Krakoa.

    It is very interesting, evocative of Morrison's run, but similarly likely fated to be divisive among the fandom in retrospect. It isn't fair he has to split his concepts among a whole roster of writers of such varying skill levels. I do applaud the cohesive continuity across the line(even if it's also a rapacious marketing strategy), but it will never be as good as when Claremont was shepherding/writing the whole line(which I sincerely doubt can ever truly be exceeded or even matched in today's industry), the best mainstream superhero comics run ever.
    That is because Marvel is making one huge mistake. They put one author per book expecting him to handle all the characters. Even in big novels like Wheel of Time, when an author writes he writes best the characters he feels. Or she for that matter. Since the roster is so huge and Hickman is gifted in the sociopath, prideful characters, he should be concentrating on them, while a second author, a co-author should take the other half, for example, Claremont can take those characters which he wrote well, and the third author can take the final portion. Once the characters are spread to several authors and they are gifted into writing them, the story wraps up and builds slowly and much more comprehensively. When you force someone to write something in which he is not interested, things don't work.

    Furthermore, when you have a couple of Authors working together and co-writing, the story becomes much more complex, much more intriguing but of course for that to happen, Marvel needs to pay and I am certain that they are not ready to contribute that much into their books. They want fast money and that is the problem with most companies these days. They provide poor quality and in exchange, they provide quantity which is completely wrong.
    Last edited by The92Ghost; 10-14-2020 at 12:01 AM.

  5. #7820
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Her movie did OK, and while I know it happened in the comics that would be horrendous way to handle the character. In fact I'd be a fast way for audiences to hate X characters, and Rogue in particular. Just coming in and stealing her powers from her and literal spotlight? This is the Storm topic, so imagine if that happened to her these days. Some new character shows up, takes most of her powers from her, and Storm is left weak and largely irrelevant. How do you think that will go over?
    I highly doubt people will start to hate X characters if Rogue takes Marvel's powers away when most people know that's what happened in the comics. Marvel isn't a hot commodity to begin with so.....

  6. #7821
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    Quote Originally Posted by The92Ghost View Post
    That why I believe that MCU will bring in Rogue to depower her quite a bit. Something tells me that Rogue will take at least 40-50% of that power to herself. Let's not forget that the events in MCU are before Rogue getting Captain Marvel's powers. Once they depower her, she will not be so centric and overpowered. She will turn back into the boring character she was after Rogue took her powers and put Rogue at the front centric place. Everything in the MCU will shift and be set for X-Men centric storyline because the Avengers are pretty much done.
    I'm honestly glad the Avengers are on their way out. After all those movies together I've grown weary of seeing them so much and i've never ever liked Iron Man. To this day I still dont understand the hype. It's about time X-Men are introduced the right way and get their fair shot and being back in the forefront of Marvel. They were indeed the original most popular Marvel team

  7. #7822
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Almost nobody in the movie going audience has any knowledge of that comic plot. You can't take comic knowledge into the movies; it results in terrible screenwriting. And I was wrong on one key point; her movie did gangbusters. 5th highest grossing movien in 2019 and 23rd highest grossing of all time at the time. A sequel is in production. There's no way in hell they are going to kneecap Carol in order to hype up Rogue. I can see the thinkpieces about having this new girl introduce herself by stealing the powers and literal spotlight from a character general audiences like. It would basically be surefire way to get people to hate Rogue right out of the gate.

    I understand not like the Avengers movies or comics, but they made all the money and broke all the records. Their characters are now more iconic, well known, and popular than the X men have ever been. Marvel movies and merch, and specifically the Avengers, are the hot commodity right now. They are almost certainly planning on bringing the X-men into the MCU, but they are going to be a lot smarter about it than Fox ever way. Right now their focus is on diversifying with Blade, Shang Chi and Ms. Marvel in production, and after that, most rumors are pushing things like Young Avengers and Ironheart. So don't expect X men for a little bit.

  8. #7823
    Spectacular Member The92Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalclouds View Post
    I'm honestly glad the Avengers are on their way out. After all those movies together I've grown weary of seeing them so much and i've never ever liked Iron Man. To this day I still dont understand the hype. It's about time X-Men are introduced the right way and get their fair shot and being back in the forefront of Marvel. They were indeed the original most popular Marvel team
    Indeed, can't agree more with you. Avengers were brought to the attention due to the the 20 Century Fox and Marvel's Deal. The original team was the X-men one and the Avengers were nobody, except Hulk and Thor, the rest were meh. I hope Marvel will concentrate once more on X-men as they should have.

  9. #7824

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    Quote Originally Posted by The92Ghost View Post
    That is because Marvel is making one huge mistake. They put one author per book expecting him to handle all the characters. Even in big novels like Wheel of Time, when an author writes he writes best the characters he feels. Or she for that matter. Since the roster is so huge and Hickman is gifted in the sociopath, prideful characters, he should be concentrating on them, while a second author, a co-author should take the other half, for example, Claremont can take those characters which he wrote well, and the third author can take the final portion. Once the characters are spread to several authors and they are gifted into writing them, the story wraps up and builds slowly and much more comprehensively. When you force someone to write something in which he is not interested, things don't work.

    Furthermore, when you have a couple of Authors working together and co-writing, the story becomes much more complex, much more intriguing but of course for that to happen, Marvel needs to pay and I am certain that they are not ready to contribute that much into their books. They want fast money and that is the problem with most companies these days. They provide poor quality and in exchange, they provide quantity which is completely wrong.
    I think most writers wouldn't synergistically collaborate like that, even if there was more financial interests at stake. Writer-artist synergy is hard enough; too many cooks in the kitchen can become cumbersome or even disastrous. That said, rare is the writer who can plot, characterize, and bring satisfying creativity to the table all at once, nevermind continuously month after month. I agree that quality is often sacrificed for quantity, especially in ongoing serial franchises.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  10. #7825
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalclouds View Post
    Yeah she's not being well received and many were saying how overpowered they made her which made her fights in the movies pretty boring. Due to the backlash and response received from the general public if she wants to be relevant and at least tolerated she's definitely gonna have to bring some other popular characters into her movies. If not trust me they'll make her exit quietly out of the MCU
    The general public liked the movie. It was a loud and vocal minority on the Internet who hated it.

  11. #7826
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Almost nobody in the movie going audience has any knowledge of that comic plot. You can't take comic knowledge into the movies; it results in terrible screenwriting. And I was wrong on one key point; her movie did gangbusters. 5th highest grossing movien in 2019 and 23rd highest grossing of all time at the time. A sequel is in production. There's no way in hell they are going to kneecap Carol in order to hype up Rogue. I can see the thinkpieces about having this new girl introduce herself by stealing the powers and literal spotlight from a character general audiences like. It would basically be surefire way to get people to hate Rogue right out of the gate.

    I understand not like the Avengers movies or comics, but they made all the money and broke all the records. Their characters are now more iconic, well known, and popular than the X men have ever been. Marvel movies and merch, and specifically the Avengers, are the hot commodity right now. They are almost certainly planning on bringing the X-men into the MCU, but they are going to be a lot smarter about it than Fox ever way. Right now their focus is on diversifying with Blade, Shang Chi and Ms. Marvel in production, and after that, most rumors are pushing things like Young Avengers and Ironheart. So don't expect X men for a little bit.
    Additionally, the MCU doesn't follow the comics directly so for all we know, Carol and Rogue won't even encounter each other in the MCU.

    I also find it funny how people are complaining about overpowered characters in an appreciation thread to one of the most powerful characters in the Marvel universe. If you guys think Carol got heat for being "too powerful", imagine what would happen if the movies start having Storm doing the things she does in the comics.

  12. #7827
    Incredible Member Stormrocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Her movie did OK, and while I know it happened in the comics that would be horrendous way to handle the character. In fact I'd be a fast way for audiences to hate X characters, and Rogue in particular. Just coming in and stealing her powers from her and literal spotlight? This is the Storm topic, so imagine if that happened to her these days. Some new character shows up, takes most of her powers from her, and Storm is left weak and largely irrelevant. How do you think that will go over?
    Rogue wasn't a good character at first. She actually was hated by a lot of Avengers (and X-Men), fans for what she did to Ms. Marvel. Hers is a redemption story that could be very powerful and entertaining to watch across a few movies. First however, she needs to be a bad guy so that her turn to the X-Men will have an emotional stake.

  13. #7828
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalclouds View Post
    Yeah she's not being well received and many were saying how overpowered they made her which made her fights in the movies pretty boring. Due to the backlash and response received from the general public if she wants to be relevant and at least tolerated she's definitely gonna have to bring some other popular characters into her movies. If not trust me they'll make her exit quietly out of the MCU
    A character being perceived as overpowered or boring in fight scenes is hardly a problem in the grand scheme of things when said character is headlining billion dollar franchises and attracting up-and-coming talent.

    That is what is most important, not what a bunch of overly dramatic and offended nerds think.

  14. #7829
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    So.......I wonder what voice would Storm have in the 90's remake? Will it be more high-dramatics or more "regular and normal" (for want of a better description.)?
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  15. #7830

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    So.......I wonder what voice would Storm have in the 90's remake? Will it be more high-dramatics or more "regular and normal" (for want of a better description.)?
    What do you mean, 90's remake?
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