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  1. #2641
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    As far as Storm vs Scott, I think her leadership is marked by leading a smaller team of X-men whereas Scott has been more about commanding multiple teams of X-men with Storm being on those multiple teams he oversees

  2. #2642

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    I am probably one of the few Storm fans that just wasn't impressed with the Storm/Cyclops duel for leadership. I think it's clear both characters are not at their best. Scott is dealing with doubts about Madelyn so his head is not 100% in the game. Storm has no powers. The danger room was purposely made to put Cyclops at a disadvantage and in the end the duel was won just cause Storm removed Scott's visor. I dunno. I just feel like this was an overhyped moment that has been given more significance than it really needs. I don't even know why writers even wanted to introduce a retcon that Maddie might have influenced Scott to lose when again the original issue clearly shows he isn't in the best place mentally anyway.

    I just wasn't impressed. We see Storm's ingenuity and resourcefulness, but that's nothing we didn't already know, even though it was a nice reminder that she is always capable no matter her circumstance. I don't consider it a "bad" or "good" showing for either character.

  3. #2643
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturius View Post
    I am probably one of the few Storm fans that just wasn't impressed with the Storm/Cyclops duel for leadership. I think it's clear both characters are not at their best. Scott is dealing with doubts about Madelyn so his head is not 100% in the game. Storm has no powers. The danger room was purposely made to put Cyclops at a disadvantage and in the end the duel was won just cause Storm removed Scott's visor. I dunno. I just feel like this was an overhyped moment that has been given more significance than it really needs. I don't even know why writers even wanted to introduce a retcon that Maddie might have influenced Scott to lose when again the original issue clearly shows he isn't in the best place mentally anyway.

    I just wasn't impressed. We see Storm's ingenuity and resourcefulness, but that's nothing we didn't already know, even though it was a nice reminder that she is always capable no matter her circumstance. I don't consider it a "bad" or "good" showing for either character.
    Agreed to a degree. The DR session wasnt to put Scott at a disadvantage but rather make the match more even bc Storm was at a huge disadvantage being powerless. He also conceeded to the lost bc he didnt want to kill her bc without the visor he couldnt control his blast and would have hit her with full power.

    The retcon wasnt done to shed light onto why Scott lost but to shed a negative light on Madelyne by making her manipulative long before the truth about her was revealed

  4. #2644
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturius View Post
    I am probably one of the few Storm fans that just wasn't impressed with the Storm/Cyclops duel for leadership. I think it's clear both characters are not at their best. Scott is dealing with doubts about Madelyn so his head is not 100% in the game. Storm has no powers. The danger room was purposely made to put Cyclops at a disadvantage and in the end the duel was won just cause Storm removed Scott's visor. I dunno. I just feel like this was an overhyped moment that has been given more significance than it really needs. I don't even know why writers even wanted to introduce a retcon that Maddie might have influenced Scott to lose when again the original issue clearly shows he isn't in the best place mentally anyway.

    I just wasn't impressed. We see Storm's ingenuity and resourcefulness, but that's nothing we didn't already know, even though it was a nice reminder that she is always capable no matter her circumstance. I don't consider it a "bad" or "good" showing for either character.
    I agree, I really didn't see a reason to retcon the fight. It is, what it is.
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  5. #2645
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I'll try :-)

    My biggest complaint with Storm's presence in the X-Books is that no one seems to ask Storm what HER vision for mutants could or should be.

    Ever since No More Mutants, the X-Men have been reacting to human aggression in violent fits and spurts. Utopia was Scott's idea about protecting mutants in wartime.

    Prior to that, Storm had established the XSE to police mutant threats and rescue civilians. It was a role that allowed her to lead by example and work alongside human diplomats to work toward a progressive status quo.

    After Cyclops died, Storm struggled with leadership positions because the paradigm was still reeling from the inertia of Cyclops' hyper-defensiveness.

    It's only now that Krakoa has created a viable economic state for mutantkind that Cyclops has been able to retreat to his proper role as military general. And while I'm WAITING, Ororo seems content on X-Men Red and playing high priestess of resurrection. What I WANT is for her to ascend to mutantkind's secretary of state.
    you make valid arguments that align to canon but I think her treatment mostly fall on the writers on the x-side not being invested in the character. after no more mutants began the shift to cyclops being the one and only leader of xmen, then there was schism when ororo should have emerged as an alternative but then that went to wolverine. even after ororo finally ascended to being leader she was emotionally a wreck and couldnt hold it together without Logan. cyclops was able to lead and move on from jean but somehow ororo couldnt? ultimately, though I think you have a sound argument canonically speaking, her treatment as you described was a result of misogynoir.

    this is why when Coates came on the scene for me it was so refreshing. she was able to be a black woman who embraced her femininity and powers with confidence, all while being in a healthy relationship with a partner who encouraged her pushing her to evolve beyond a point she thought was not possible.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  6. #2646
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    you make valid arguments that align to canon but I think her treatment mostly fall on the writers on the x-side not being invested in the character. after no more mutants began the shift to cyclops being the one and only leader of xmen, then there was schism when ororo should have emerged as an alternative but then that went to wolverine. even after ororo finally ascended to being leader she was emotionally a wreck and couldnt hold it together without Logan. cyclops was able to lead and move on from jean but somehow ororo couldnt? ultimately, though I think you have a sound argument canonically speaking, her treatment as you described was a result of misogynoir.

    this is why when Coates came on the scene for me it was so refreshing. she was able to be a black woman who embraced her femininity and powers with confidence, all while being in a healthy relationship with a partner who encouraged her pushing her to evolve beyond a point she thought was not possible.
    Cyclops wasnt able to lead and move on from Jean. He closed the school down, became a depressive mess and sh-t went downhill for mutantkind. That was the purpose of Morrison's last arc. He got a do-over and was able to pick himself up bc he had Emma by his side in the aftermath. So thats why I wouldnt cite that as an example of them being misogynstic bc Marvel literally wrote the story that told us he wouldnt be effective without a woman by his side. Its not exactly the first time either bc the first time Jean died, he quit
    Last edited by Havok83; 03-30-2020 at 05:45 PM.

  7. #2647
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    you make valid arguments that align to canon but I think her treatment mostly fall on the writers on the x-side not being invested in the character. after no more mutants began the shift to cyclops being the one and only leader of xmen, then there was schism when ororo should have emerged as an alternative but then that went to wolverine. even after ororo finally ascended to being leader she was emotionally a wreck and couldnt hold it together without Logan. cyclops was able to lead and move on from jean but somehow ororo couldnt? ultimately, though I think you have a sound argument canonically speaking, her treatment as you described was a result of misogynoir.
    Oh sure. I'm absolutely not saying that outside factors like misogynoir had effects on the story as it played out. Writers can be weak people.

    I also don't really care for Cyclops v Wolverine fights. They're boring and childish and have nothing to do with leadership and everything to do with daddy issues.

    I'm far more interested in the three X-Men chosen to LEAD on the Quiet Council. I just wish there was room in the story for Storm to assemble.

  8. #2648
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturius View Post
    I am probably one of the few Storm fans that just wasn't impressed with the Storm/Cyclops duel for leadership. I think it's clear both characters are not at their best. Scott is dealing with doubts about Madelyn so his head is not 100% in the game. Storm has no powers. The danger room was purposely made to put Cyclops at a disadvantage and in the end the duel was won just cause Storm removed Scott's visor. I dunno. I just feel like this was an overhyped moment that has been given more significance than it really needs. I don't even know why writers even wanted to introduce a retcon that Maddie might have influenced Scott to lose when again the original issue clearly shows he isn't in the best place mentally anyway.

    I just wasn't impressed. We see Storm's ingenuity and resourcefulness, but that's nothing we didn't already know, even though it was a nice reminder that she is always capable no matter her circumstance. I don't consider it a "bad" or "good" showing for either character.
    I think your assessment is a fair one. I liked it because of what you described us being able to witness: her resoutcefulness and ingenuity.

    despite whatever maddie did I think for me at least that ororo will always find a way with or without her powers.

    Tchalla's biggest regret is not Ororo.


    https://www.cbr.com/black-panther-bi...et-illuminati/
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  9. #2649
    Extraordinary Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    Tchalla's biggest regret is not Ororo.


    https://www.cbr.com/black-panther-bi...et-illuminati/
    Who said it was Ororo??

    I didn’t think Storm was his biggest regret.
    Last edited by stormphoenix; 03-31-2020 at 09:37 AM.
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  10. #2650
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I think your assessment is a fair one. I liked it because of what you described us being able to witness: her resoutcefulness and ingenuity.

    despite whatever maddie did I think for me at least that ororo will always find a way with or without her powers.

    Tchalla's biggest regret is not Ororo.


    https://www.cbr.com/black-panther-bi...et-illuminati/
    Only regret he should have is not killing Namor on sight.

  11. #2651
    Incredible Member GuiltyPleasure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    Tchalla's biggest regret is not Ororo.


    https://www.cbr.com/black-panther-bi...et-illuminati/

    I really don't like most of these CBR articles. The author never seems to truly get what in the hell is going on. For BP #22 there is an order to T'Challa's biggest regrets. His ancestors bring each of them up. At each turn, he contends his name is T'Challa. But after each memory of regret, he gets closer to accepting himself as King of Wakanda. His regret about the dissolution of his marriage to Ororo is technically the last regret his ancestors reveal. The Illuminati is shown before she comes to T'Challa. What finally pushes him over from the combined buildup was the part about how his father handled the death of his mother. So, if we are ranking his biggest regrets, it was what happened between himself and Ororo that is his "biggest regret.". I think Coates had her shown last for a reason. At this point, he isn't even fighting back any more. He screams for her to come back and to come home. This is where he really begins to break down--literally dropping to his knees when asked: "And what shall we name he who turns his back on the one he so solemnly swore to protect?" That's how I read it anyway.
    Last edited by GuiltyPleasure; 03-31-2020 at 08:50 AM.

  12. #2652
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Oh sure. I'm absolutely not saying that outside factors like misogynoir had effects on the story as it played out. Writers can be weak people.

    I also don't really care for Cyclops v Wolverine fights. They're boring and childish and have nothing to do with leadership and everything to do with daddy issues.

    I'm far more interested in the three X-Men chosen to LEAD on the Quiet Council. I just wish there was room in the story for Storm to assemble.
    agreed to all of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Only regret he should have is not killing Namor on sight.
    well he did attempt to kill him at one point.


    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    I really don't like most of these CBR articles. The author never seems to truly get what in the hell is going on. For BP #22 there is an order to T'Challa's biggest regrets. His ancestors bring each of them up. At each turn, he contends his name is T'Challa. But after each memory of regret, he gets closer to accepting himself as King of Wakanda. His regret about the dissolution of his marriage to Ororo is technically the last regret his ancestors reveal. The Illuminati is shown before she comes to T'Challa. What finally pushes him over from the combined buildup was the part about how his father handled the death of his mother. So, if we are ranking his biggest regrets, it was what happened between himself and Ororo that is his "biggest regret.". I think Coates had her shown last for a reason. At this point, he isn't even fighting back any more. He screams for her to come back and to come home. This is where he really begins to break down--literally dropping to his knees when asked: "And what shall we name he who turns his back on the one he so solemnly swore to protect?" That's how I read it anyway.

    that's a very interesting take. I personally saw it as simply a display of what he believed or his ancestors saw as his biggest faults (there wasnt one that was necessarily bigger than the other); however, I do see how you can interpret it as you did. that said I dont see how cbr concluded what they did as that diesnt make sense to me when reading the story.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  13. #2653
    Incredible Member GuiltyPleasure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    that's a very interesting take. I personally saw it as simply a display of what he believed or his ancestors saw as his biggest faults (there wasnt one that was necessarily bigger than the other); however, I do see how you can interpret it as you did. that said I dont see how cbr concluded what they did as that diesnt make sense to me when reading the story.

    I also saw the displays as T'Challa's big regrets. When I read the issue, I didn't consciously rank them, but I do think Coates likely intended them to build from least to most. The part with Ororo also fits what his narrative has been for them since he reestablished their relationship. It's been mentioned by BP and Shuri that his dissolution of his marriage was not only a huge mistake but his way of running away from his responsibilities. So, I don't think it is a coincidence that this is brought up right before he eventually breaks down and accepts himself for who he truly is, mistakes/regrets and all.

    But nothing in the issue gets to what CBR wrote in that article. It's groundless and click bait.

  14. #2654
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    I also saw the displays as T'Challa's big regrets. When I read the issue, I didn't consciously rank them, but I do think Coates likely intended them to build from least to most. The part with Ororo also fits what his narrative has been for them since he reestablished their relationship. It's been mentioned by BP and Shuri that his dissolution of his marriage was not only a huge mistake but his way of running away from his responsibilities. So, I don't think it is a coincidence that this is brought up right before he eventually breaks down and accepts himself for who he truly is, mistakes/regrets and all.

    But nothing in the issue gets to what CBR wrote in that article. It's groundless and click bait.
    agreed. question. I was thinking about this but why wasnt leaving shuri to die one of his regrets? I figured it was because shuri told him that she understood and had no ill-feelings as she knew he had to do it.

    back to ororo, it definitely seemed of all the things he was shown he had the biggest emotional reaction to letting ororo go. I hope the next writer continues to build upon what coates wrote but I know there are some who have worked at marvel that dont want her involved at all with the BP mythos.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  15. #2655
    Incredible Member GuiltyPleasure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    agreed. question. I was thinking about this but why wasnt leaving shuri to die one of his regrets? I figured it was because shuri told him that she understood and had no ill-feelings as she knew he had to do it.

    back to ororo, it definitely seemed of all the things he was shown he had the biggest emotional reaction to letting ororo go. I hope the next writer continues to build upon what coates wrote but I know there are some who have worked at marvel that dont want her involved at all with the BP mythos.
    Good question about Shuri. I think T'Challa has come to terms with that decision in a way that, perhaps, he hasn't with the others. I also thought the emotion T'Challa showed at losing Ororo again was much different from his emotions with the other events. With those, he really fought. But with her, he softened when she appeared, seeking her kiss to heal his hurt. I think Coates has taken the lemons of AvX and made lemonade with the couple. I sorely doubt any other writer, least of all an X-writer, will show them like this--loving and respecting each other. Even though we have 3 issues left, so far, Coates will leave T'Challa and Ororo in a better, stronger place than the characters were in when he started writing them four years ago. For BP/Storm fans, that's a good legacy for Coates.

    T'Challa also had a huge reaction, crying, when his father told him he was no longer his son. I think they all had a cumulative impact on him, especially being reminded of hurting the woman he loves because of his own weaknesses. So, as a friend of mine says: "Suck it up buttercup." That's pretty much what his ancestors was telling him. He needed to man up, stop making excuses, stop running away, stop doubting himself, and be the leader Wakanda needs.
    Last edited by GuiltyPleasure; 03-31-2020 at 01:48 PM.

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