The Fantastic Four Appreciation 2020

[CaptCleghorn]

If they are keeping the descendant connection it's not a good look having the heroic white ancestor with the evil black descendant. Also I doubt they will miss the opportunity to diversify the FF, in this climate I highly doubt the entire team will be white. It's more a question of who they'll change, not if.

Reed is the "easiest" to change as it diversifies the Marvel geniuses, he doesn't change into an orange rock-monster, and he has no relatives on the team that would have to be changed too.

After seeing Breaking Bad, I would LOVE to see Giancarlo Esposito as Reed Richards. But getting back to Kang...

If Kang is played by a black actor,
And if Kang is still a DISTANT descendant of Reed,

As has been mentioned, Kang's race does not have to be the same as Sue's or Reed's. Because we're dealing with a couple of thousand years, it seems almost likely there would be some race mixing in any family tree. The concern Crimz has about a white hero having a black descendant who is evil is valid. This might be tempered by Kang not acting out of purely evil means (killing half of all life), but doing something with good intentions and good results, but not for our Earth.

It's a superhero comic book movie with alternate dimensions and time travel. This stuff must be fairly common and easy to come up with, right?

[Crimz]

After seeing Breaking Bad, I would LOVE to see Giancarlo Esposito as Reed Richards. But getting back to Kang...

If Kang is played by a black actor,
And if Kang is still a DISTANT descendant of Reed,

As has been mentioned, Kang's race does not have to be the same as Sue's or Reed's. Because we're dealing with a couple of thousand years, it seems almost likely there would be some race mixing in any family tree. The concern Crimz has about a white hero having a black descendant who is evil is valid. This might be tempered by Kang not acting out of purely evil means (killing half of all life), but doing something with good intentions and good results, but not for our Earth.

It's a superhero comic book movie with alternate dimensions and time travel. This stuff must be fairly common and easy to come up with, right?

Marvel is trying to diversify their films so I don't believe the FF will be a completely white team. Kang doesn't confirm this, but it does make it a more likely possibility if he is still the descendant of Reed (and Sue). While current Reed or Sue could definitely be a different race from their descendant, it doesn't look good when you keep the main characters white particularly when trying to diversify your heroes. Especially when there will be an expectation for one of them to be black if their descendant is. It may make sense considering how far down the family line Kang is, but that still make audiences raise an eyebrow if Reed and Sue are still white.

To me, it would be a missed opportunity.

[Frontier]

I think they were casting someone who could play a convincing Kang rather than thinking about how that would matter to a possible FF casting. I mean, Kang's VA in EMH was black too.

It's too early to say if they'll even use that element to begin with.

They're contributions to the scientific aspect of the team is basically assisting Reed and whatever plans he has. It would be one thing if the team was a basic superhero team out to patrol and fight crime, but they're not. The Fantastic Four are a scientific adventure team and when only Reed does the science it makes thing biased in his favour. Plots, enemies, saving the day, it often comes down to Reed and that is the problem with their dynamic (in terms of team, not the family dynamic which has separate problems). They don't feel like peers/equals and the three aren't necessary for the main goal of the Fantastic Four and that needs to change, that's one of the most dated aspects of the team imo.

But they contribute in a way that only they can with their powers and how they know how to use them, at least from my perspective. I can't really see Reed doing any of this on his own, or if he did it wouldn't end well with him (just look at the Council of Reed's).

[Mutant God]

Do you guys think we're going to get the whereabouts of the FF in Antman 3?

Either that or Captain Marvel 2, I can see them being hit by cosmic radiation and Carol saves them and later during the mid credits we see their powers emerging

[Crimz]

I think they were casting someone who could play a convincing Kang rather than thinking about how that would matter to a possible FF casting. I mean, Kang's VA in EMH was black too.

It's too early to say if they'll even use that element to begin with.

But they contribute in a way that only they can with their powers and how they know how to use them, at least from my perspective. I can't really see Reed doing any of this on his own, or if he did it wouldn't end well with him (just look at the Council of Reed's).

But contributing with powers only does so much and only has them involved in a shallow way. What I'm getting at is that the FF being a scientific adventure team should mean that all them should have importance in those aspects, not just one of them. Because instead of it being a team of equals, it's Reed and the other 3...
The other 3 don't have to all be scientists, but should have a role that benefits the scientific adventure aspect outside of using their powers. Like Ben is trained pilot/astronaut which puts his skills under the 'adventure' side of what the FF does and that's great. But those skills are rarely highlighted and are often passed on to Reed, like the many times we see Reed flying the crafts the FF use. That should almost never happen as that's Ben's role and Reed has taken that away from him.

It should be balanced with each member having a unique role that contributes to the science or adventure outside of their powers. Reed has both, so the others should too if this really is a team of equals.

[phantom1592]

I get what you mean but I am 90% sure all 4 won't be caucasians because the MCU wants to make money wants to attract the general audience that already thinks the FF are boring.

Race changing in the last movie led to a LOT of controversy and the movie bombed. For the 'main' characters, MCU has been doing a pretty good job making sure they look like what the fans expect. With the background, b-list and side characters, they have been playing fast and loose. I could see anyone from Kang, Doom, Alicia or any of the others to be race changed... but for the main 4, I think they'll play it straight.

And I'm with Danielsan. I want my movies to look like the comics come to life. the characters that I've been in love with for 40+ years in live action. Not some new interpretation that a director wants to mix things up just to make his mark on things.

[Crimz]

Race changing in the last movie led to a LOT of controversy and the movie bombed. For the 'main' characters, MCU has been doing a pretty good job making sure they look like what the fans expect. With the background, b-list and side characters, they have been playing fast and loose. I could see anyone from Kang, Doom, Alicia or any of the others to be race changed... but for the main 4, I think they'll play it straight.

And I'm with Danielsan. I want my movies to look like the comics come to life. the characters that I've been in love with for 40+ years in live action. Not some new interpretation that a director wants to mix things up just to make his mark on things.

That film bombed because it was trash. That's the long and short of it. The race change had next to no impact on that, what did have impact was the director trashing his own film days before it released...

I don't need my heroes to look exactly like comics, so many things change in an adaptation and that can easily be one of them. All that matters is getting spirit and dynamic of the characters right, and for most characters that doesn't include race/ethnicity. The FF are such characters (except Ben who should be Jewish but that doesn't mean he needs to be white too).

Film adaptations are considered to be alternate universes and anything can happen in different realities. We as comic fans understand this, so I don't understand why there is a different expectation for film. Things can and will be different, if a director wants to put their own spin on things then what's the problem? It's no different from a writer doing their own thing in the Ultimate or MC2 universe.

We already know they'll have big differences from the comic version just from the nature of being in the MCU and it's vastly different universe, and they haven't even been introduced yet. What's the issue?

[Frontier]

But contributing with powers only does so much and only has them involved in a shallow way. What I'm getting at is that the FF being a scientific adventure team should mean that all them should have importance in those aspects, not just one of them. Because instead of it being a team of equals, it's Reed and the other 3...
The other 3 don't have to all be scientists, but should have a role that benefits the scientific adventure aspect outside of using their powers. Like Ben is trained pilot/astronaut which puts his skills under the 'adventure' side of what the FF does and that's great. But those skills are rarely highlighted and are often passed on to Reed, like the many times we see Reed flying the crafts the FF use. That should almost never happen as that's Ben's role and Reed has taken that away from him.

It should be balanced with each member having a unique role that contributes to the science or adventure outside of their powers. Reed has both, so the others should too if this really is a team of equals.

I mean, I don't find it shallow because their powers are a huge part of them and what they bring to the team and I've never found a lack of a specific scientific role to slight them in FF adventures when their character and powers are usually at the forefront, but that's just me.

[Crimz]

I mean, I don't find it shallow because their powers are a huge part of them and what they bring to the team and I've never found a lack of a specific scientific role to slight them in FF adventures when their character and powers are usually at the forefront, but that's just me.

And that's fine but there only contribution being their powers is part of why Reed takes up most of the narrative. Most of the villains target him, most characters in the MU go specifically to him for help, all the adventures are based on what he wants to do. The team is not balanced and so much is centered on Reed and all I'm saying is that their roles on the team are a part of that.
Like so many adventures end with Reed saving the day with his intelligence, that's fine, but the problem is that it happens way too much. The others should save the day their own unique way more often outside of their powers like Reed can.

[Frontier]

And that's fine but there only contribution being their powers is part of why Reed takes up most of the narrative. Most of the villains target him, most characters in the MU go specifically to him for help, all the adventures are based on what he wants to do. The team is not balanced and so much is centered on Reed and all I'm saying is that their roles on the team are a part of that.
Like so many adventures end with Reed saving the day with his intelligence, that's fine, but the problem is that it happens way too much. The others should save the day their own unique way more often outside of their powers like Reed can.

Other than guest appearances when the MU needs major scientists I've never felt the FF was that Reed-centric, even if he's the leader, but that's just my own perspective. I feel like the team is balanced in other ways in terms of story use but that might also be something that's a little dependent on which run you're looking at.

[comicscollector]

Attachment 100600
https://www.gamesradar.com/fantastic...r-in-december/

I wish they could've worn these uniforms a little longer.

Looks intriguing.
Besides the main ongoing Fantastic Four comic book i have been enjoying the other new Fantastic Four stories so i will be reading this extra story of Fantastic Four in december.

[Oberon]

Last night I was in the mood to read some of the better issues of the FF.
So I pulled out the very underrated (and all to short) run by Len Wein.
I started with issue #184 and finished with one of the saddest issues I ever read #191.
I forgot how good this run was.
Attachment 100613Attachment 100614

The whole era from maybe # 130s to 220s or so is very good. I liked the solo issues that followed the saddest issue as you say.

[Oberon]

If they are keeping the descendant connection it's not a good look having the heroic white ancestor with the evil black descendant. Also I doubt they will miss the opportunity to diversify the FF, in this climate I highly doubt the entire team will be white. It's more a question of who they'll change, not if.

Reed is the "easiest" to change as it diversifies the Marvel geniuses, he doesn't change into an orange rock-monster, and he has no relatives on the team that would have to be changed too.

Well, I really hope they don't do that. Period. Have ever seen Kang's face? It's always blue or something else (alien, weirdness) but blue. If they have the FF as lost in time, than we'll see the cast as in comics. Kang's full reveal doesn't have to be all at once, especially the mystery of his origins. Kang has trolled Dr. Doom about being his descendent though that was quite long ago.

I honestly don't believe that white good ancestor/black evil descendent will matter that much. Marvel 'evil' is just action/heroics.

[Oberon]

Marvel is trying to diversify their films so I don't believe the FF will be a completely white team. Kang doesn't confirm this, but it does make it a more likely possibility if he is still the descendant of Reed (and Sue). While current Reed or Sue could definitely be a different race from their descendant, it doesn't look good when you keep the main characters white particularly when trying to diversify your heroes. Especially when there will be an expectation for one of them to be black if their descendant is. It may make sense considering how far down the family line Kang is, but that still make audiences raise an eyebrow if Reed and Sue are still white.

To me, it would be a missed opportunity.

Nah! The meeting between the FF, Reed and Kang would be: "I am your descendent from over 1000 years in the future", he either removes a helmet or does not, they all stare in awe of some sort. He, Kang, does not need to be revealed to be of any race, I'm telling you. Can anyone post a picture of what Kang looks like without a blue mask or hue over his face?

I'm the grandparent of a multi racial child. She's 14 and beautiful. I know you didn't say it and I'm not trying to scold anyone, but I don't like the term 'race mixing'.

Even back in the '70s some of the biggest comic fans, FF fans at that, were black men and we could talk quite a while about plots and characters. I really don't think this stuff matters as much as you think. Likewise the movies and other media.

Works best when you try to be less gratuitous with it. Like the casting of Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin in the DD movie. Nothing needed to be said and it was perfect casting to me.
Likewise with Majors as Kang, I really don't think anyone need 'explain' anything and please let the FF be as they've always intended to be. Isn't that why "we hate" all the other movie representations? PS: yes, even eye color should be correct to me, too. Spidey has brown eyes, looking at your Toby, though in most other ways you were perfect too.

[Oberon]

Well, I'm too old to take this seriously, but I'm especially surprised with Crimz remarks as I didn't see that at all.

I don't think Marvel has to do this for any of the reasons you suggest and I think you are wrong to think that. The movies have a nearly built in factor for success and have always played well with the use of race and casting.

That is why they didn't need to cast across color or races lines for most arguable recognizable Marvel Characters. I think if they did that with the four, it would be a major departure and possibly have unintended consequences.

I didn't think the older FF movies were trash. I understand many were displeased with them. Their initial runs as the box office were not 'bombs', so I don't understand the hatred. It sort of reminds me of XMen fans and Wanda. Gotta go, and definitely not starting or continuing arguments.