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  1. #961
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    The 90s FF cartoon was great in the second season. Coincidently, Quinton Flynn was brought on to do the Human Torch, so I'm a bit biased towards having him on the cast over Brian Green



    He shoots fire, not spits fire.





    DeFalco's main book sucked because of stupid stuff like Cable Franklin (although I will take that over mean to disabled people Franklin we currently have), time travel shenanigans which I tend to dislike more often than not, and of course, whatever the hell Hyperstorm was.
    Long long time fan, I actually liked DeFalco's run, a lot (yes, the possible Namor Sue stuff but there was a lot: Lyja, Power SKRull, tripPPy time stuff.). I liked the implication that maybe Nathaniel was an alt version of Cable. Would have needed more finese and editorial management with affected titles. I really liked it because it hit all my soap operatic type plot points. Maybe it is time to say this, but after decades of reading heroes, villains fighting, the only things that may interest are the person to person interactions. They need to come up with something much more intriguing than of late. I prefer stories that twist the CW and possibly interact with various time anomalies. That is the FF to me, in a way. I love the eternal dynamic between Reed and Doom, but nothing really great has happened for a long time. Most of us don't think it remains realistic or serves development with any of them. Like the prequels of Star Wars, humanizing or whatever Doom, doesn't always work. In most recent years, Hickman is clearly the best writer.

  2. #962
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    This doesn't mean I want Johnny to be 'bi', but it doesn't mean I don't want this addressed in a mature way.

    Likewise anything else with their intra relationships. The family concept is really what kept me here all these years.

    Would Ben and Alicia try to have a child/children, when he reverts to human? The whole implication could be extremely dangerous for Alicia, but that story would be intriguing if they really wanted to explore it with the right amount of "marvel" science.

    Speaking of Defalco, and this is strictly soap operatic, but I seem to recall a sequence where Nathaniel hinted to Sue or others that he might be the (time-traveling) parent of Kristoff - was it even more subtlety Doom's true father (ie; Reed and Doom are half brothers!).

    I can wholly see why most readers would howl in anger or pain, but I found that intriguing.

  3. #963
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Yes they would. They were going to last time, but Puppet Master (Alicia's Dad!) interfered by siccing the Hulk on Ben.
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  4. #964
    Spectacular Member markhyperion's Avatar
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    I agree that the DeFalco run is underrated now. At the time I too was like, this is dumb, future Frank?

    But looking back, the new team line-up, the new characters (loved Huntara and Fantastic Force), change of old characters (great almost villainous Nathaniel).

    Though I disliked it at the time, I read every issue the day I got it. Further, there was FF Unpulgged, 90s cartoon, Fantastic Force, 90s cartoon comic, Atlantis Rising, and FF Unlimited (I think that's what it was called)

    There was tons of FF back then. It was a great time to be FF fan and a lot was added to mythos. I kinda really liked it looking back.

    Though Sue's bikini costume was ridiculous, the second iteration was one of her best.

  5. #965
    Spectacular Member markhyperion's Avatar
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    That said I wasn't a fan of Sue and Namor subplot. Though it was interesting enough to last two years.

    Also, while I liked Kristoff, I'm still unsure if it was teen Kristoff or child Kristoff in Doom armor.

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    This doesn't mean I want Johnny to be 'bi', but it doesn't mean I don't want this addressed in a mature way.

    Likewise anything else with their intra relationships. The family concept is really what kept me here all these years.

    Would Ben and Alicia try to have a child/children, when he reverts to human? The whole implication could be extremely dangerous for Alicia, but that story would be intriguing if they really wanted to explore it with the right amount of "marvel" science.

    Speaking of Defalco, and this is strictly soap operatic, but I seem to recall a sequence where Nathaniel hinted to Sue or others that he might be the (time-traveling) parent of Kristoff - was it even more subtlety Doom's true father (ie; Reed and Doom are half brothers!).

    I can wholly see why most readers would howl in anger or pain, but I found that intriguing.
    They had planned to try on the honeymoon. And I agree...would be interesting to see where it goes.

  7. #967
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    I will say this about the DeFalco run. Ideas he pioneered in his 616 run were done much more justice in his MC2 run.

  8. #968
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    I will say this about the DeFalco run. Ideas he pioneered in his 616 run were done much more justice in his MC2 run.
    Yes, I would agree. Considering how long the Reed is dead story went on, all the reverberations of Future Frank, I think he Defalco, was trying to make lasting changes. eventually they must have said, bring Reed back, period.

  9. #969
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markhyperion View Post
    That said I wasn't a fan of Sue and Namor subplot. Though it was interesting enough to last two years.

    Also, while I liked Kristoff, I'm still unsure if it was teen Kristoff or child Kristoff in Doom armor.
    Back then Kristoff was in modified armor to give him the height of an adult. He was not much older than Franklin but I think his intelligence got boosted by the Remembrancer the Doombots used on him when it was thought Doom was killed in FF#260




    These days he was much taller when we last saw Kristoff during Hickman's Fantastic Four / New Avengers. He no longer needed modifications to give him height. Unfortunately he hasn't been seen since then.

    Character model by Valerio Schiti





  10. #970
    Incredible Member The BaRoN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markhyperion View Post
    I agree that the DeFalco run is underrated now. At the time I too was like, this is dumb, future Frank?

    But looking back, the new team line-up, the new characters (loved Huntara and Fantastic Force), change of old characters (great almost villainous Nathaniel).

    Though I disliked it at the time, I read every issue the day I got it. Further, there was FF Unpulgged, 90s cartoon, Fantastic Force, 90s cartoon comic, Atlantis Rising, and FF Unlimited (I think that's what it was called)

    There was tons of FF back then. It was a great time to be FF fan and a lot was added to mythos. I kinda really liked it looking back.

    Though Sue's bikini costume was ridiculous, the second iteration was one of her best.
    I re read the whole run recently and loved it, I enjoyed it at the time mainly because of the cartoon but reading it recently made me really appreciate it so much more and how gripping it was each month.

    It really opened up the family and as you said added so much to the FF, Nathaniel was great, Force was fun and unplugged/unlimited were extra treats for FF fans.

    Even after with Jim Lee on reborn, it was a huge seller and number 1 the month it came out and you felt it was deserved because the FF were pretty big deal outside of the X-Men and Spider-man.

    It feels a lifetime ago now that the FF had that kind of push, I know we've had a lot of FF one shots and minis recently but they deserve a 2nd book and hopefully a new cartoon is on the way that will give a whole new generation the exposure to FF we had in the 90s.

    New FF(start of DeFalco run) and Strange days(end of the run) are both collected recently as epic collections but a huge 40 issue chunk is missing between them that hopefully comes one day.

  11. #971
    Fantastic Member Thundershot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The BaRoN View Post
    I re read the whole run recently and loved it, I enjoyed it at the time mainly because of the cartoon but reading it recently made me really appreciate it so much more and how gripping it was each month.

    It really opened up the family and as you said added so much to the FF, Nathaniel was great, Force was fun and unplugged/unlimited were extra treats for FF fans.

    Even after with Jim Lee on reborn, it was a huge seller and number 1 the month it came out and you felt it was deserved because the FF were pretty big deal outside of the X-Men and Spider-man.

    It feels a lifetime ago now that the FF had that kind of push, I know we've had a lot of FF one shots and minis recently but they deserve a 2nd book and hopefully a new cartoon is on the way that will give a whole new generation the exposure to FF we had in the 90s.

    New FF(start of DeFalco run) and Strange days(end of the run) are both collected recently as epic collections but a huge 40 issue chunk is missing between them that hopefully comes one day.
    I hate the gaping hole in the epic collections. I hope we donít have to wait YEARS for them.. We have three volumes to fill... 42 issues plus annuals and whatever crossover issues. Each Epic is roughly 15 issues give or take.

    Also I should note that I thought the DeFalco run was almost universally hated, so it pleases me to see there are fans other than me. Heck, in the current run, Iím still hoping a callback to when Alicia was imprisoned by the Skrulls (and replaced with Lyja) as to why the Skrull kid knows Alicia..
    Last edited by Thundershot; 08-12-2020 at 09:31 AM.

  12. #972
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    I'm sure there will be... and that'll prompt Alicia to decide to become N'Kalla and Jo-Venn's adoptive mother.
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  13. #973
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundershot View Post
    I hate the gaping hole in the epic collections. I hope we don’t have to wait YEARS for them.. We have three volumes to fill... 42 issues plus annuals and whatever crossover issues. Each Epic is roughly 15 issues give or take.

    Also I should note that I thought the DeFalco run was almost universally hated, so it pleases me to see there are fans other than me. Heck, in the current run, I’m still hoping a callback to when Alicia was imprisoned by the Skrulls (and replaced with Lyja) as to why the Skrull kid knows Alicia..
    Continuity is nice and linking this to events of the past is generally a good thing. However, the entire Johnny/Alicia marriage was a huge mistake which really was a horrible development for Johnny's character. I get how Lyja's introduction was used to at least allow the marriage to be dissolved, but that still left Johnny as an incredible a-hole and Lyja as a definite villainess.

    The effectively weekly publication of Empyre have caused issues to pile up in my "to read" pile. so there may be something that would bring Alicia to go way out of her way to adopt the two kids and the development for Ben and Alicia would be great but highlighting the horrible events of Lyja et al are something I'd much rather see skipped over.

  14. #974
    Incredible Member Marvel Forever's Avatar
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    There have been a few mistakes made by FF writers over the years, but the Johnny-Alicia wedding has to rank as #1.

  15. #975
    Fantastic Member Thundershot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Continuity is nice and linking this to events of the past is generally a good thing. However, the entire Johnny/Alicia marriage was a huge mistake which really was a horrible development for Johnny's character. I get how Lyja's introduction was used to at least allow the marriage to be dissolved, but that still left Johnny as an incredible a-hole and Lyja as a definite villainess.

    The effectively weekly publication of Empyre have caused issues to pile up in my "to read" pile. so there may be something that would bring Alicia to go way out of her way to adopt the two kids and the development for Ben and Alicia would be great but highlighting the horrible events of Lyja et al are something I'd much rather see skipped over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Forever View Post
    There have been a few mistakes made by FF writers over the years, but the Johnny-Alicia wedding has to rank as #1.
    DeFalco was the one who got rid of the marriage while still preserving the character. Also, we got Lyja out of it! I love the character of Lyja, and I wish she’d come back, even for a while... (Maybe have a chat with Sky lol)

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