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  1. #1966
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    but that doesnt track as Scott wasnt brought back to the X-men when Jean returned. He spent years in another book, not stepping on Storm's toes at all and when he did return to the X-men, he was put on a different team than her, not that it mattered as Claremont was pretty much done by then
    Yes, and that was against Claremont's will- if depended on him, X-factor would never have existed in the first place, and Scott would be retired forever.

  2. #1967
    Mighty Member Thievery's Avatar
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    I don't post in the Cyclops appreciation thread because what I like about Cyclops seems to be far different than what other members of this forum like about the character. I prefer the Bendis era revolutionary version of the character greatly compared to what the character was before, who I honestly wasn't very fond of. Like at all. And what the current version of Cyclops is turning back into. I also prefer Scott/Emma greatly over Scott/Jean, despite the fact that it is what led to Scott becoming a serial cheater.
    So I wasn't sure if I should give my take on what Claremont had to say, but I am going to try anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    For those interested, Chris Claremont did an AMA on Reddit recently. And not surprisingly, he took some time to denigrate Cyclops. This was the exchange:
    I don't read that interview as being as nearly denigrating towards Scott as you think that it is. All that Claremont is doing is giving his opinion on what derailed Scott's character progression. He just feels that Scott walking out on his wife and kid was a bad direction to take the character in. It caused the character to go through years worth of stories just to rehabilitate the character. I see no problem with this take on what happened to the character. Instead of being able to take Scott into what he felt would be a great new direction, Scott had the reset button pushed on him. And in my opinion at least, those reset stories did Scott no favors

    I can understand how Claremont would feel cheated out of writing his story.
    Hell, whenever a story leaks out about how a writer had his or her story nixed by editorial decisions, the fans usually side with the writer. That doesn't seem to be happening in this situation.

    I don't find the Wolverine comparisons to be all that negative. Wolverine as a character is cool , where Scott is a nerd. Even the Revolutionary version of Scott that I enjoyed reading about wasn't a person that I would say was cool. Now that is not a bad thing. Does Scott being someone that most people would find to be not cool necassarily make Scott a bad character? I would say no. Just look at Peter Parker. Is Peter Parker cool? No he is not. I would say that Peter Parker is a nerd. Does that make Peter Parker a bad character? I would say that no it does not. Many of Peter Parker's fans like the character because they can identify with him for not being cool. Talking to many Cyclops fans away from this forum, they seem to feel the same way about Scott. They can identify with the character because he wears glasses, can be socially awkward, and would probably be considered to be a nerd. There is nothing wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    After reading this response from the interview, I'm not entirely sure what Claremont is trying to say he wanted for Scott. Did he want him to just be a normal guy? I'm not sure if there were years of material to dig into if that were the case. Otherwise, I'm not surprised from anything else in the interview. Also, that Wolverine comparison just makes me even more confused, but it is what it is.
    I think that Claremont is just trying to say that he wanted to give Scott as close to a happy story as he possibly could. I think that the marriage to Maddy was just a way to give Scott some closure over the death of Jean, and help him move on with his life. And hopefully new stories.

    I agree with you that being married probably wouldn't have led to years of good stories for Cyclops. Marriage doesn't work for most super hero characters, and it clearly didn't work for Scott. His later marriage to Jean certainly did the character no favors in terms of stories to tell. Not in my opinion at least.
    Obviously Claremont felt differently.

    I think I understand the comparison that Claremont made between Logan and Scott. I think that he is trying to say that Wolverine written under Claremont will kill some one who truly needs to die, someone like Apocalypse who is capable of large scale deaths, or Logan will kill in self defense. But either way Logan could justify his actions to himself.
    Scott, on the other hand could never justify walking out on Maddy and Nate, and it caused the character to suffer. Both in terms of what many fans think of him, such as myself, and the sorts of stories that he was trapped in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Considering that, while the story about Jean's return came out in January 1986, Claremont was already aware of it at some point in 1985, that means that he, who turned 70 this year, spent most of his life bitter because not only a plot point about a fictional character, but that specific point was that a character who was well known to be obsessive with work, and whom he describes as the foundation of comics' most popular superhero team, didn't stay married and retired forever to a woman he married a couple of months after meeting her, and who looked exactly like his dead girlfriend.

    Let that sink in for a moment.
    I think that Claremont has more than sufficient reason to be bitter. His greatest story was undone by people who should have had no control over his characters, and didn't even bother to tell him to his face.
    His plans for future stories were taken from him.

    I once read an interview where the decision to undo Jean's death and end Scott's marriage to Jean was referred to as "Chris Busters" by those who were involved in the decision. I searched for the "Chris Busters" interview before posting this, but I could not find it. I may have read the interview in a book. But, if my greatest story was retconned out of existence and was done in such a personal and unprofessional manner, I would be more than bitter also.

    I agree that having Scott marry someone who looked exactly like his dead girlfriend was a bad idea. It helped to undercut the Scott/Jean romance and the Dark Phoenix story that Claremont wanted so badly to preserve.

    That's just how interpret that interview about Scott.
    I hope that I articulated it in a way that anyone who reads this post will understand what I am trying to say.
    Last edited by Thievery; 11-20-2020 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Spelling and grammar, but I'm sure there are still many mistakes left.

  3. #1968
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    After reading this response from the interview, I'm not entirely sure what Claremont is trying to say he wanted for Scott. Did he want him to just be a normal guy? I'm not sure if there were years of material to dig into if that were the case. Otherwise, I'm not surprised from anything else in the interview. Also, that Wolverine comparison just makes me even more confused, but it is what it is.
    His entire thing is he wanted to right Scott out of the books permanently and forever has sour grapes that he got overruled on that. It's one of those things where in hindsight you'd respond with "Well no #$%@" over a comic writer not getting the absolute final word on how a super heroes story would end.
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  4. #1969
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    I don't post in the Cyclops appreciation thread because what I like about Cyclops seems to be far different than what other members of this forum like about the character. I prefer the Bendis era revolutionary version of the character greatly compared to what the character was before, who I honestly wasn't very fond of. Like at all. And what the current version of Cyclops is turning back into. I also prefer Scott/Emma greatly over Scott/Jean, despite the fact that it is what led to Scott becoming a serial cheater.
    So I wasn't sure if I should give my take on what Claremont had to say, but I am going to try anyway.
    well its unfortunate you stayed away for so long bc thats not an unpopular opinion here at all. Id say most actually share your view here

  5. #1970
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    I think that the marriage to Maddy was just a way to give Scott some closure over the death of Jean, and help him move on with his life. And hopefully new stories.
    But that's the exact opposite; you're not moving on from your girlfriend's death if you're marrying a woman that looks like her twin a few months after meeting her. Claremont seems to have watched Vertigo and thought it was beautiful love story.

    And the entire purpose of having Cyclops getting married is to not have new stories with him, getting him sidelined forever- except when Claremont himself decided to bring him as a guest, whenever he wanted- which could be months or years.

    Ironically, for all the talk about having Cyclops move on, Claremont himself does the opposite- first, he can't move on from the idea that Cyclops has to retire from the X-men permanently with Jean, that is nixed with the end of DPS, then he can't move on from the idea that editorial ended the marriage with Madelyne.

  6. #1971
    Embrace the Fluff FluffyCyclopsRLZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    I think that Claremont is just trying to say that he wanted to give Scott as close to a happy story as he possibly could. I think that the marriage to Maddy was just a way to give Scott some closure over the death of Jean, and help him move on with his life. And hopefully new stories.
    The bolded part is where you'll lose most of us. For years, whenever pressed on the Maddie issue, Claremont has been basically saying that UXM #201 was about Cyclops choosing his family. That is... almost the exact opposite of what happened. Thus the skepticism.

  7. #1972
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Claremont problems is the same as some of his stans, he thinks that the only stories that matter are the ones he wrote. And forget that those aren't his characters.

    The man made great things for characters like Storm, Logan and even Jean, but Cyclops isn't one. If I've had discovered the x-men during his run Cyclops wouldn't be my favorite.

  8. #1973
    Mighty Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    But that's the exact opposite; you're not moving on from your girlfriend's death if you're marrying a woman that looks like her twin a few months after meeting her. Claremont seems to have watched Vertigo and thought it was beautiful love story.

    And the entire purpose of having Cyclops getting married is to not have new stories with him, getting him sidelined forever- except when Claremont himself decided to bring him as a guest, whenever he wanted- which could be months or years.

    Ironically, for all the talk about having Cyclops move on, Claremont himself does the opposite- first, he can't move on from the idea that Cyclops has to retire from the X-men permanently with Jean, that is nixed with the end of DPS, then he can't move on from the idea that editorial ended the marriage with Madelyne.
    I completely agree with you about how poor the decision was to have Scott marry someone who looks like his dead girlfriend. Like I said in my previous post, I think that it undermines the Scott/Jean romance completely. Scott's decision to marry Maddy makes it appear as though he only loved Jean for what she looked like, not for the person that she actually was. That's just how I read the story. I've seen other fans say that it makes Scott look like a creep who was obsessed with Jean. I read Scott/Maddy in retrospect long after the story had been originally printed. So I can understand how people who read the Maddy/Scott story while they kids growing up can reach a different conclusion on it. I just think that it reads poorly in hind sight.

    As far as Claremont intending to sideline Cyclops for years I really don't know what to say about that. He really does come across as naive if he thought that was going to happen.

    I do think that Claremont was willing to move on from Cyclops being retired though. He offered up both Dazzler and Tessa as alternate members to take Jean's place in X-Factor. So while he wanted to preserve Dark Phoenix Saga and Maddy's marriage to Scott, it does seem as though Claremont was willing to play ball within the comics in regards to whether or not Scott should be used regularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    The bolded part is where you'll lose most of us. For years, whenever pressed on the Maddie issue, Claremont has been basically saying that UXM #201 was about Cyclops choosing his family. That is... almost the exact opposite of what happened. Thus the skepticism.
    Sorry, I couldnt find my copy of Essential X-Men where the story in UXM #201 takes place before responding. If I remember the details correctly Scott tries to get his leadership spot in the X-Men back and fails. Al that I can guess is that Claremont's answer about Cyclops choosing his family was going to be revealed later on as a subconscious decision that Cyclops made without knowing it. That's all that I can guess without having the issue in front of me. I believe that it was revealed that Maddy influenced him to loose the fight.

    I do believe that Claremont intended for Scott's marriage to lead to new stories for the character.
    I dont think that those new stories would have been all that interesting, but that's probably because I don't typically enjoy stories about married super heroes. Guess that I will never know.

  9. #1974
    Mighty Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Claremont problems is the same as some of his stans, he thinks that the only stories that matter are the ones he wrote. And forget that those aren't his characters.

    The man made great things for characters like Storm, Logan and even Jean, but Cyclops isn't one. If I've had discovered the x-men during his run Cyclops wouldn't be my favorite.
    Wow. I don't see the opinion that Claremont did nothing for Cyclops very often. Cyclops was basically the star of the early issues of the All-New era of the X-Men. He's typically regarded as having been the first writer to make the Scott/Jean relationship great. Plus Claremont wrote Dark Phoenix Saga, witch is usually a go to story for favorite Cyclops stories.

    I do agree with you about that era's Cyclops though. There are a few stories here and there, such as Dark Phoenix and X-Cutioner's Song, but I typically don't care for most Cyclops stories until Grant Morrison took over the comics, and my favorite version of the character is the one that Bendis wrote.
    I'm sorry to see that the old school, boy scout version of Cyclops is returning, but I'm happy for those of you who are getting your favorite version of Scott back.

  10. #1975
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    Wow. I don't see the opinion that Claremont did nothing for Cyclops very often. Cyclops was basically the star of the early issues of the All-New era of the X-Men. He's typically regarded as having been the first writer to make the Scott/Jean relationship great. Plus Claremont wrote Dark Phoenix Saga, witch is usually a go to story for favorite Cyclops stories.

    I do agree with you about that era's Cyclops though. There are a few stories here and there, such as Dark Phoenix and X-Cutioner's Song, but I typically don't care for most Cyclops stories until Grant Morrison took over the comics, and my favorite version of the character is the one that Bendis wrote.
    I'm sorry to see that the old school, boy scout version of Cyclops is returning, but I'm happy for those of you who are getting your favorite version of Scott back.
    Morrison is where Cyclops becomes great to me. So we have that in common.

    My favorite is probably Wheadon's or Ellis. Fraction Cyclops was also great.

    The thing about Claremont, at least to me, is that while Cyclops was the POV many times, speacially at the begining, Claremont never seemed as interest on Cyclops as he was on Storm for example. Cyclops stories under Claremont were more about Jean than himself.

  11. #1976
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    I don't post on this thread horribly often either, I'm a big time lurker. With that said I also will admit I maybe and absolute just Cyclops fanboy. I loved boy scout Cyke, I loved Utopia Cyke, and I loved revolutionary Cyke. Krakoan Cyke is hard for me to really get a feel fro because I just haven't seen enough for me. SO this is is my disclaimer.

    I've been re-reading the Claremont run lately and I've seen a lot of his interviews and his feelings on the subject. For years Maddie and Emma (different rant for a different day? I swear this isnt' meant to bash other characters so much as, shed light on Cyke's view?) were a huge black mark on Cyke's record for me, even if I moved on and became a bigger fan of Cyke and Emma then Cyke and Jean. In recent years my thoughts on Maddie are this:

    Maddie looked a lot like Jean (well yes a clone, but wasn't revealed at the time) who Scott met shortly after watching Jean kill herself. To me it didn't seem like Cyke was only into how Jean looked, but looked more like he couldn't get over Jean. He didn't love Maddie for who Maddie was, but for who she looked like, who she could remind him of which is Jean. To me Cyke came off as a man suffering from PTSD in a serious way. Stop and look at things from the context of what is going on and those around him. Cyke meets Maddie, and marries her in under a year's worth of publication time (really really short when you consider Marvel's sliding timeline for the real characters). He dates, falls for and marries a woman who looks exactly like Jean, which EVERYONE admits. Think of your closest friends and family if they pulled the same stunt. I know I'd step in and advise my mine that this is a unhealthy idea, and its not a way to move on with your life. No one did this, heck Cyke was actually encouraged to pursue the relationship, and he did. For me, it was either poor or accidentally genius writing on Claremont's part. It writes Scott as a man with serious mental health issues, and no support system to help him. His friends and family seriously failed this man by not objecting or at the least cautioning him. I'm not absolving him but pointing out the man came off as having serious issues. Mental health is complicated like that.

    Toss in later Jean comes back to life (a serious issue no one in real life will really ever have to actually deal with, let's be honest here). Was leaving for X-Factor to see Jean bad move on his part? Sure, I won't deny that. However its a situation none of us will ever be in, and to me comes off as a rather human thing. He didn't instantly pick things up with Jean where they left off, he spends several issues in X-Factor trying to reconnect with Maddie and blames himself for his actions. Its one big mess but I feel its rather realistic, because real people aren't paragons. It was at least an issue he felt horrible over for a long while. I could go into the sins of other X-Men who never have to deal with their issues, both in print and fan anger. I get this isn't really the frame for that so I'm not going to. I just feel that Cyke often takes a hit here without people walking a mile his his gold pirate boots.
    Last edited by Cyked; 11-20-2020 at 07:39 PM.

  12. #1977
    Mighty Member gambitxremy's Avatar
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    https://youtu.be/bEC5ymoB0Dk

    Great interview with Fabian 41 minutes in

    Adam-X was suppose to be His Luke Skywalker

  13. #1978
    Mighty Member Kal-El Summers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyked View Post
    For me, it was either poor or accidentally genius writing on Claremont's part.
    If he had any intention of picking it up later, I'd lean toward accidentally genius. The fact that he considered it a "happy ending" despite all the red flags that you and almost everyone else in the thread have noted and had no plans to bring him back puts me on the "poor" side.

  14. #1979
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    The red flags are all over the place! I was going to go into the warning signs Maddie should have seen but...well 1)Sinister and 2) is this the thread for it? I can digress easily and don't want to cross lines.
    Last edited by Cyked; 11-20-2020 at 09:42 PM.

  15. #1980
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    I think that Claremont is just trying to say that he wanted to give Scott as close to a happy story as he possibly could. I think that the marriage to Maddy was just a way to give Scott some closure over the death of Jean, and help him move on with his life. And hopefully new stories.

    I agree with you that being married probably wouldn't have led to years of good stories for Cyclops. Marriage doesn't work for most super hero characters, and it clearly didn't work for Scott. His later marriage to Jean certainly did the character no favors in terms of stories to tell. Not in my opinion at least.
    Obviously Claremont felt differently.

    I think I understand the comparison that Claremont made between Logan and Scott. I think that he is trying to say that Wolverine written under Claremont will kill some one who truly needs to die, someone like Apocalypse who is capable of large scale deaths, or Logan will kill in self defense. But either way Logan could justify his actions to himself.
    Scott, on the other hand could never justify walking out on Maddy and Nate, and it caused the character to suffer. Both in terms of what many fans think of him, such as myself, and the sorts of stories that he was trapped in.
    I'm not sure any of us really agree one hundred percent on what we like from Cyclops, so I think your view of what you like is entirely fine. I'm pretty sure some even agree with you. So, by all means, if you want to drop in, feel free.

    As for Claremont's comments, I'm not sure I believe his desire to give Scott a happy ending. Scott being unable to be an X-man, husband, and father seems like an odd choice and justification. I'm not sure a civilian life would have done anything for the character. Honestly, I would have preferred Scott to have had deeper character exploration. Most of it seemed to come later from X-factor.

    As for the Wolverine and Cyclops comments, I find it confusing because of the two different circumstances he was comparing. During Claremont's early writing of Wolverine, he wasn't that friendly or entirely honorable. He attacked Kurt for getting close to Mariko once. Those are actions Wolverine has been able to improve from, so I find it odd he feels Scott couldn't improve/redeem himself. While everything surrounding Maddie was a mess, it's something writing could have accounted for. That being said, I'm not sure his decision to visit Jean and be pushed out of his family's life is equivalent to killing terrible people.

    Honestly, I don't expect Claremont's views to change. I'm fine if they don't. I just hope that whatever he's writing in Legends has nothing to do with the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyked View Post
    Toss in later Jean comes back to life (a serious issue no one in real life will really ever have to actually deal with, let's be honest here). Was leaving for X-Factor to see Jean bad move on his part? Sure, I won't deny that. However its a situation none of us will ever be in, and to me comes off as a rather human thing. He didn't instantly pick things up with Jean where they left off, he spends several issues in X-Factor trying to reconnect with Maddie and blames himself for his actions. Its one big mess but I feel its rather realistic, because real people aren't paragons. It was at least an issue he felt horrible over for a long while. I could go into the sins of other X-Men who never have to deal with their issues, both in print and fan anger. I get this isn't really the frame for that so I'm not going to. I just feel that Cyke often takes a hit here without people walking a mile his his gold pirate boots.
    I think this is a good point to make. That would definitely be an awkward situation. Your old love is supposedly back from the dead. What do you do?
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 11-21-2020 at 01:22 AM.
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