Scott Summers: Cyclops Appreciation 2020

[Kal-El Summers]

They really should've had Mags and Lorna chuck that whole station into the Sun.

[TheDeadSpace]

Assuming that was even the original~~~

Do we even know Cyclops anymore? Lol. It's weird when you think about it.

[xiyon]

Do we even know Cyclops anymore? Lol. It's weird when you think about it.

I said it once, and I'll say it again. Hickman's crafted the perfect excuse to cherry-pick continuity. It's brilliant, if it wasn't such a cheat.

[MechaJeanix]

Maybe I've only skimmed and need to read more, but I think fans should be careful not to make the current versions of our fav characters clones or copies. They are written to be the same ones. There is a reason why the main characters like Scott, Jean, Logan, Xavier and now Apocalypse have been through the resurrection procedure.

If you have all your memories (which makes us who we are) with our exact genetic makeup. Then it is us, especially if you believe the animus/soul resides with your mind.

[Dryllyrd]

The thing is though souls actually exist in the Marvel universe they go off to heaven and hell and such places. Xavier copies each X person once a week which is basically just a save point in a video game, making a copy of the latest version of that person.

So then they die and a new body is cloned and that most recent save point version is installed.

That doesn’t make these clones copies the original character because what about the soul?

Like if cyclops completes his weekly save point update on Wednesday then on Friday has a complete breakdown goes off the rails and murders his whole family then dies... what happens?

Is the cyclops that is brought back from Wednesday innocent of killing his family? Yes. -because he didn’t do it. He’s just a clone with all those memories up till Wednesday.

But the Friday cyclops who went all murderous? Well his soul is in hell or wherever for killing all those people.

[MechaJeanix]

The thing is though souls actually exist in the Marvel universe they go off to heaven and hell and such places. Xavier copies each X person once a week which is basically just a save point in a video game, making a copy of the latest version of that person.

So then they die and a new body is cloned and that most recent save point version is installed.

That doesn’t make these clones copies the original character because what about the soul?

Like if cyclops completes his weekly save point update on Wednesday then on Friday has a complete breakdown goes off the rails and murders his whole family then dies... what happens?

Is the cyclops that is brought back from Wednesday innocent of killing his family? Yes. -because he didn’t do it. He’s just a clone with all those memories up till Wednesday.

But the Friday cyclops who went all murderous? Well his soul is in hell or wherever for killing all those people.

I'm not sure why people keep married to the idea of souls existing in the Marvel Universe. The soul is an abstract religious concept and in the real world what makes us who we are is in fact our brains and what our brains store (our memories which includes our memories of our experiences, etc). It is all of who we are and I think Hickman is leaning into that heavily. Of course Hickman suggested in an interview that our souls will catch up to the cloned bodies did he not, when he referenced the soul delay/jet lag theory lol It something he's not going to have every resurrected mutant do (go on a soul quest because it would be too much).

[spirit2011]

I'm not sure why people keep married to the idea of souls existing in the Marvel Universe. The soul is an abstract religious concept and in the real world what makes us who we are is in fact our brains and what our brains store (our memories which includes our memories of our experiences, etc). It is all of who we are and I think Hickman is leaning into that heavily. Of course Hickman suggested in an interview that our souls will catch up to the cloned bodies did he not, when he referenced the soul delay/jet lag theory lol It something he's not going to have every resurrected mutant do (go on a soul quest because it would be too much).

Souls exist on Marvel Universe

[Kisinith]

Souls exist on Marvel Universe

Everything and nothings exists in the MU. Whatever topic is being written works however the current writer wants it to and it stops working that way as soon as a new writer wants it to work differently. This is true for powers, characterization, relationships, science, time travel the afterlife... pretty much anything. Sadly this isn't even a snarky answer it really is Marvel's official policy.

That said, this style of resurrection isn't new and has been used in the past, created by Papa Claremont I believe

[Zelena]

Assuming that was even the original~~~

He can't be the same…

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. Heraclitus.

I suppose it is even truer for a comic character written by so many authors…

[MechaJeanix]

Souls exist on Marvel Universe

I know but in same way they exist in real life which is still abstract. My point is let’s not turn Scott into something he is not. This is our version of Cyclops, the one brought back by Kid Cable in the annual using the Phoenix. Yes he died since them but he was brought back in a similar plot device way.

[FUBAR007]

I'm not sure why people keep married to the idea of souls existing in the Marvel Universe.

Because of the way Hickman structured the resurrection protocol. Or, perhaps more appropriately, the way he didn't structure it.

Dead mutants are "resurrected" by implanting back-up copies of their minds, previously stored in Cerebro, into cloned bodies created by the Five. Note: they are NOT "resurrected" via consciousness transfer at the time of death.

Look at it this way: when Scott died fighting Orchis, Xavier didn't bring him back by capturing his soul at the time of death, storing it in Cerebro, and implanting it into a new body. No, Xavier used a back-up copy of Scott's mind that had already been created and stored in Cerebro and put that into the new body. In other words, when Scott died, the back-up copy of his mind already existed. There were already two iterations of him--the one who died (presumably the original whom Kate Summers gave birth to decades ago) and the back-up copy of him stored in Cerebro. It's that back-up copy we see up and around now. He is A Scott, but he is not THE Scott. THE Scott is dead.

Furthermore, we know this design isn't a goof on Hickman's part, but rather a deliberate plot choice because Hickman himself has said there will be stories dealing with what happens when there are two versions of a character alive at the same time. (My guess is it will involve Xavier and the Five "resurrecting" someone who turns out not to have died.) Whether or not this setup plays a larger role in Hickman's grand design remains to be seen. My bet is it does.

[PrezValentine]

Usually, the occurrence of clones in Marvel is only when that person is alive at the same time, with cases such as Ben Reilly, Otto Octavius and Madelyne Pryor (who existed, only gaining life when Phoenix died at the moon). There are, naturally, loopholes in this, like the inhuman Cyclops created by Sinister in Lemire's run (which might not be a loophole, seeing as he had no mind of his own).

The main thing is that the most common assumption is: when the body is perfectly recreated, the soul of the person is attached to it again. As it happened with Scott, Jean, Colossus and so many others. Using that reasoning, these versions are true and that's why the policy of no duplicates exist.

None of that, though, is very important in this context. My English fails me at this time, but it's just a logic question.
See, if I say "New York is 20 kilometers away from San Francisco" and "Victoria (BC) is ten thousand kilometers away from San Francisco"; and therefore get to the conclusion "New York is closer to San Francisco than Victoria". Both of these sentences are FACTUALLY wrong. But they are both said within a context where they are correct and that's what matters.

Which takes us back to Hickman. You have two statements:
A. The union of a compatible body and something that can be defined as an actual soul is enough to validate an individual as their true version.

B. A backup of absolutely all the memories of an individual constitutes a soul.

And a conclusion

C. The process created by The Five counts as resurrection.

Hickman is going with A and B being true within the X-Men books. So, "if A and B are true, then C" is what he gets at.

Therefore, "if the union of a compatible body and what we call a soul is a person's true version and a backup of all memories of a person is considered a soul, then the process created by The Five is a true resurrection".

It's crude and I'm not used to read or write about these concepts in a language that is not Portuguese. Despite that, I hope you can understand what I mean.

[FUBAR007]

My point is that Hickman deliberately chose NOT to have resurrection occur via consciousness transfer at the time of death. Which he could have easily done using the same plot elements--the Five, Cerebro, Xavier's telepathy. But, he didn't. Why? Because, at some point, he wants to play with the idea of whether or not a back-up copy of a person is really the same as the original.

On a meta level, yes, CloneClops is the "true" Scott in the sense that he's the only version we're going to see on the page for the foreseeable future. But, that doesn't change the canonical, on-panel fact that he's a back-up copy, not the original.

[xiyon]

I'm not sure why people keep married to the idea of souls existing in the Marvel Universe. The soul is an abstract religious concept and in the real world what makes us who we are is in fact our brains and what our brains store (our memories which includes our memories of our experiences, etc). It is all of who we are and I think Hickman is leaning into that heavily. Of course Hickman suggested in an interview that our souls will catch up to the cloned bodies did he not, when he referenced the soul delay/jet lag theory lol It something he's not going to have every resurrected mutant do (go on a soul quest because it would be too much).

Souls exist on Marvel Universe

As I said, it's clear Hickman tries to cover up his cloning process with the term resurrection, and is rolling with the idea of resurrection. The problem is, it was already established--- as others have pointed out--- that the soul exists in the Marvel Universe. Off the top of my head, there was Magick's quest to regain her soul. Maybe Hickman will expound on the soul jet-lag idea in the future. I mean, Maddie is Jean's clone-- why didn't Jean's soul go to her, instead?

Hickman's cloning process is, really, just a clever way to bring back fan-favorites back, imho.

We'll just agree to disagree. Hickman calls it resurrection; I call it cloning.

Because of the way Hickman structured the resurrection protocol. Or, perhaps more appropriately, the way he didn't structure it.

Dead mutants are "resurrected" by implanting back-up copies of their minds, previously stored in Cerebro, into cloned bodies created by the Five. Note: they are NOT "resurrected" via consciousness transfer at the time of death.

Look at it this way: when Scott died fighting Orchis, Xavier didn't bring him back by capturing his soul at the time of death, storing it in Cerebro, and implanting it into a new body. No, Xavier used a back-up copy of Scott's mind that had already been created and stored in Cerebro and put that into the new body. In other words, when Scott died, the back-up copy of his mind already existed. There were already two iterations of him--the one who died (presumably the original whom Kate Summers gave birth to decades ago) and the back-up copy of him stored in Cerebro. It's that back-up copy we see up and around now. He is A Scott, but he is not THE Scott. THE Scott is dead.

Furthermore, we know this design isn't a goof on Hickman's part, but rather a deliberate plot choice because Hickman himself has said there will be stories dealing with what happens when there are two versions of a character alive at the same time. (My guess is it will involve Xavier and the Five "resurrecting" someone who turns out not to have died.) Whether or not this setup plays a larger role in Hickman's grand design remains to be seen. My bet is it does.

Well-said!

Now if only Hickman can get to telling that story instead of the current batch of fillers--ahem, "world-building" we're getting.

[TheDeadSpace]

My point is that Hickman deliberately chose NOT to have resurrection occur via consciousness transfer at the time of death. Which he could have easily done using the same plot elements--the Five, Cerebro, Xavier's telepathy. But, he didn't. Why? Because, at some point, he wants to play with the idea of whether or not a back-up copy of a person is really the same as the original.

On a meta level, yes, CloneClops is the "true" Scott in the sense that he's the only version we're going to see on the page for the foreseeable future. But, that doesn't change the canonical, on-panel fact that he's a back-up copy, not the original.

I like your analysis of the subject. It's pretty much how I feel. We can't really change the situation and the Cyclops we have now is established as "the" Cyclops.

At the very least, it provides an opportunity for jokes.