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  1. #676

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Moai View Post
    I get that his popularity means that he'll guest star in lot other heroes' books. What annoys me is when he's retconned into being old friends with them. It was fine when it turned out that he and Carol Danvers knew each other from her days in the Air Force intelligence. But they started overusing that idea with other characters. Black Widow and Captain America are the prime examples that come to mind.
    Cap, Natasha or Nick Fury and Logan go way back during late 80s given how much they are related to Weapon X or Weapon Plus program. Cap was Weapon 1.
    Better example where he is overused would be rather Thor or Spider-Man
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  2. #677
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Personally I have always seen very hypocritical as Spider-man accepts Logan with "I can't judge him" and tries to put Punisher in jail.

  3. #678
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Personally I have always seen very hypocritical as Spider-man accepts Logan with "I can't judge him" and tries to put Punisher in jail.
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  4. #679
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Personally I have always seen very hypocritical as Spider-man accepts Logan with "I can't judge him" and tries to put Punisher in jail.
    It really doesn't make much sense to be honest, as someone that likes both Peter and Logan, i'm always iffy when they are presented as friends (although they had fun banter ocasionally), frankly Peter is too disgusted by murder in general to be get along with him and Logan is not going to spend much time around someone "too soft". And don't get me started on Deadpool, that one is even worse (although i think that he makes a point of not killing people in front of Peter, if i remember correctly).
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  5. #680
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    It really doesn't make much sense to be honest, as someone that likes both Peter and Logan, i'm always iffy when they are presented as friends (although they had fun banter ocasionally), frankly Peter is too disgusted by murder in general to be get along with him and Logan is not going to spend much time around someone "too soft". And don't get me started on Deadpool, that one is even worse (although i think that he makes a point of not killing people in front of Peter, if i remember correctly).
    Yes, Deadpool avoided killing in front of Spider-man. But he carries pistols and katanas, he doesn't fool anyone, much less Peter. I remember that the burial issue of JJ Jameson's wife appear in his inner demons Logan as one of the superheroes he kills.

    For not diverting the subject, what do you think Scott's no killing policy was like before Krakoa?

    I have always interpreted it as something like "Only as a last resort but if necessary, I will not lose sleep over it."

  6. #681
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Yes, Deadpool avoided killing in front of Spider-man. But he carries pistols and katanas, he doesn't fool anyone, much less Peter. I remember that the burial issue of JJ Jameson's wife appear in his inner demons Logan as one of the superheroes he kills.

    For not diverting the subject, what do you think Scott's no killing policy was like before Krakoa?

    I have always interpreted it as something like "Only as a last resort but if necessary, I will not lose sleep over it."
    I think that he was rembering how he killed Logan's friend Charlemaigne back in Europe in that Priest one-shot but i haven't read that one in a while.

    But to go back to the point, before Morrison, his position seemed to be "we never kill, we should be better than", but considering that he did try to kill Mister Sinister during Inferno, he probably wasn't againts doing it as a last resource. After Morrison, he was just exactly as you describe him, not his first choice, but he definetly isn't against doing if it has to be done.
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  7. #682
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Yes, I do remember a Cyclops conversation with Storm in Warren Ellis Astonishing talking about it. Whenever possible he prefers to kill but if he has to choose between the life of an X-Men and that of a villain, he will not hesitate.

    I think it is a very reasonable midpoint. With his powers, if Scott wasn't careful using them he could overkill pretty much anything in front of him.

    Practically all the fights in which he participates if he had no moral qualms could end with "I take off my visor, I open my eyes wide and I have already won." And that would be boring, having to hold back makes it more enjoyable to watch him fight, like when facing those assassins in X-Men # 4 to protect Apocalypse, Xavier and Magneto.

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Yes, Deadpool avoided killing in front of Spider-man. But he carries pistols and katanas, he doesn't fool anyone, much less Peter. I remember that the burial issue of JJ Jameson's wife appear in his inner demons Logan as one of the superheroes he kills.

    For not diverting the subject, what do you think Scott's no killing policy was like before Krakoa?

    I have always interpreted it as something like "Only as a last resort but if necessary, I will not lose sleep over it."
    Prior to House of X / Decimation, I'd say Cyke was almost fanatic about not killing. But that all changed when their numbers dwindled and their enemies still blew up a bus-full of depowered kids. And then Messiah Complex (and then Secret Invasion and then Dark Reign) happened and Cyke chose to adapt to the times.

    I vaguely recall Cyke basically telling Logan that X-Force will only run until Hope was secured. And after Second Coming, Cyke returned to the "No Killing" schtick, and it took being forcibly drugged by the Phoenix Force and repeated attacks and betrayals on him on multiple fronts before his tight hold finally snapped-- and even then, he managed to only murder one person.

    Krakoa!Scott, though... I don't know. Does it count as pro-murder if peeps are just gonna get revived, anyways? I'm honestly flummoxed why death is still such a big deal when the only problem is when said dead person gets better, not if.
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  9. #684
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiyon View Post
    Prior to House of X / Decimation, I'd say Cyke was almost fanatic about not killing. But that all changed when their numbers dwindled and their enemies still blew up a bus-full of depowered kids. And then Messiah Complex (and then Secret Invasion and then Dark Reign) happened and Cyke chose to adapt to the times.

    I vaguely recall Cyke basically telling Logan that X-Force will only run until Hope was secured. And after Second Coming, Cyke returned to the "No Killing" schtick, and it took being forcibly drugged by the Phoenix Force and repeated attacks and betrayals on him on multiple fronts before his tight hold finally snapped-- and even then, he managed to only murder one person.

    Krakoa!Scott, though... I don't know. Does it count as pro-murder if peeps are just gonna get revived, anyways? I'm honestly flummoxed why death is still such a big deal when the only problem is when said dead person gets better, not if.
    Yeah, I think Scott still disliked the idea of killing. It seemed to be a last resort type of deal.

    As for current Scott. He seems to still have a similar view considering their mission on the station. Then again he seems to act like his more typical "boy-scout" persona.

    To be honest I'm not 100% sure on what to make of his current characterization. I can't put my finger on it.
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  10. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Yeah, I think Scott still disliked the idea of killing. It seemed to be a last resort type of deal.

    As for current Scott. He seems to still have a similar view considering their mission on the station. Then again he seems to act like his more typical "boy-scout" persona.

    To be honest I'm not 100% sure on what to make of his current characterization. I can't put my finger on it.
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    You'd think the WatXM staff that defected from Utopia because "think of the children!" would put a stop to The Crucible, but here we are now...

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  11. #686
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Yeah, I think Scott still disliked the idea of killing. It seemed to be a last resort type of deal.

    As for current Scott. He seems to still have a similar view considering their mission on the station. Then again he seems to act like his more typical "boy-scout" persona.

    To be honest I'm not 100% sure on what to make of his current characterization. I can't put my finger on it.
    On the mission at the station he makes it clear that he wants to avoid all possible casualties, but he has an intermediate point between Jean "We cannot kill anyone under any circumstances" and Logan "let's kill them all". You can see that like Nightcrawler he doesn't kill anyone.

    When faced with Hordeculture or assassins, he uses strictly non-lethal force. He is even scared when he thinks he has broken an old woman's hip.

    For me the current Scott is an intermediate point between boy scout Scott and Utopia Scott. He can relax again but maintains an edge if necessary.

  12. #687
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    On the mission at the station he makes it clear that he wants to avoid all possible casualties, but he has an intermediate point between Jean "We cannot kill anyone under any circumstances" and Logan "let's kill them all". You can see that like Nightcrawler he doesn't kill anyone.

    When faced with Hordeculture or assassins, he uses strictly non-lethal force. He is even scared when he thinks he has broken an old woman's hip.

    For me the current Scott is an intermediate point between boy scout Scott and Utopia Scott. He can relax again but maintains an edge if necessary.
    I guess that makes sense, but overall something feels off.

    There just seems to be an odd disconnect for me at this point considering the mess his characterization has had these past years. It's gone from: a depressed extremist/revolutionary (who actually fits in with Krakoa in retrospect), to "boy scout" that hated everything he did, to depressed somewhat edgy Scott who is afraid of leading, to a Scott that now is happy and an intermediate between "boy scout" and revolutionary. It's making my head hurt...

    The guy's character arc doesn't make any sense.
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 04-09-2020 at 05:02 PM.
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  13. #688
    Extraordinary Member Fokken's Avatar
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    I love Scott's complexity. Given all he's been through, these up's and down's and highs and lows seem perfectly appropriate. Its an engaging and thought provoking change from STOIC leader who chooses to NOT emote.

  14. #689
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    I guess that makes sense, but overall something feels off.

    There just seems to be an odd disconnect for me at this point considering the mess his characterization has had these past years. It's gone from: a depressed extremist/revolutionary (who actually fits in with Krakoa in retrospect), to "boy scout" that hated everything he did, to depressed somewhat edgy Scott who is afraid of leading, to a Scott that now is happy and an intermediate between "boy scout" and revolutionary. It's making my head hurt...

    The guy's character arc doesn't make any sense.
    If you ignore Rosencanny I think it makes sense to think that after being resurrected Scott decides to have an intermediate point between revolutionary and boy scout.

    "Boy scout didn't work, revolutionary didn't work, maybe something in between works." When his current outfit was first shown I already thought that was what they were doing. It is basically a mix between his revolutionary and classic outfit.

  15. #690
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    If you ignore Rosencanny I think it makes sense to think that after being resurrected Scott decides to have an intermediate point between revolutionary and boy scout.

    "Boy scout didn't work, revolutionary didn't work, maybe something in between works." When his current outfit was first shown I already thought that was what they were doing. It is basically a mix between his revolutionary and classic outfit.
    True, Rosenberg's/Brisson's characterization are where things get confusing for me considering his characterization with Hickman.

    The costume definitely makes it seems as if Scott is an amalgamation of recent ideologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fokken View Post
    I love Scott's complexity. Given all he's been through, these up's and down's and highs and lows seem perfectly appropriate. Its an engaging and thought provoking change from STOIC leader who chooses to NOT emote.
    I love it too, but multiple changes in less than a year seems a bit too much for me. It felt as if there was a lack of agreement in how he should be characterized in my opinion. Maybe if the ups and downs lasted longer, I would have been okay with everything that happened last year.

    Either way, that is a positive way to view the situation.
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 04-10-2020 at 05:39 PM.
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