Victor Von Doom: Dr Doom Appreciation 2020

[Iron Maiden]

Hi everyone!! I was on the Doom Appreciation Thread back in '18 for a brief bit and I just wanted to pop back in and say hey!

I've been reading Cantwell's Doom with regularity and toying with the idea of writing something about Doom in some capacity.. Does anyone by chance know if Doomscribe's full list of Doom appearances is still available anywhere? Also if there's any interviews from Lee or Kirby about why they decided Doom would be an Eastern European Roma? Best I can make out is that Kirby got some inspiration during his time in the army and possibly out of his own family fleeing from Europe, but that's extrapolation.

P.S. That's a sick tattoo! 0: My jocular knee jerk reaction to "Does Doom have a tattoo" is: perhaps a heart on his bicep that says Mom. ha ha

I knew someone would say that! I was almost going to say "and a tattoo saying "Mother" doesn't count"

I hope Doomscribe reads your post and can provide an answer. I miss that page too. I was going to create an Excel file or perhaps an Access table that I could convert into a Word document but it is a daunting task. I was going to use the index on Marvel Unlimited as a jumping off point but it is woefully underpopulated. The Doom entry on the Fandom wiki is a bit more complete I think.
At least it makes a good start. I like how it grades them as appearance ver sus minor appearance.

As for the source of how Stan and Jack decided on his ethnicity, I haven't found anything directly related to it. I have posted here before my thoughts about Kirby's time in the military being a possible source of inspiration and there's an excellent interview posted here on the Twomorrows.com site. It's quite long but once you get to the section about his WWII service, towards the end he talks about seeing a stockade of prisoners they were lead to by the local towns people. He doesn't mention where but I would think it would be France because he says he was in one of General Patton's divisions pushing their way through Europe as the Germans retreated. They had left these prisoners behind in the stockade and Kirby and his comrades in the scouting patrol released them. I would speculate that this is Kirby's first hand experience in how the Jewish where treated by the Germans and stuck with him all those years. My theory is that you rarely got a mention of ethnicity in those comics....probably Izzy Cohen in Sgt. Fury's commandos is the only character one could be sure was meant to be Jewish. Many films would have gypsy characters in them...there always seemed to be "gypsies" in the Universal monster movies of the 30s - 40s. There was the character of Maleva played by Russian actress Maria Ouspenskaya in the Lon Chaney Wolf Man movies .

There's always been disputes about how much of the FF stories were Stan Lee or Jack Kirby's. My hunch is that there is a lot of Kirby in the Doom origin. While doing more googling, I found this interesting piece that is authored by someone named Mark Hibbet and it appears to confirm our suspicions. In relating the part about Doom's family history where his father fails to cure the Baron's wife and has to flee from the Baron's wrath, he uses a Kirby quote here about his parents immigrated to the U.S. for this reason:

"This part of the origin may have its roots in Kurzberg family legend - Kirby claimed that "my father had insulted a member of the German aristocracy. My father knew he'd be killed, so he decided to emigrate."

Unfortunately he doesn't list a source for that quote but IMO it really confirms that Kirby had a lot of input in Doom's origin.

I wish there had been some more interviews out there that discuss it but so far I've not found anything else. Stan frequently gave Kirby free rein when working with him but this is about all I can go by for now. I think it's pretty solid evidence so far.

Nice to see you back again!

[connorhawkes]

Iron Maiden, you and I are on the exact same page! Like literally, I had that twomorrows interview bookmarked *and* that quote about Kirby’s dad pissing off European nobility LOL! The source is an excerpt from Kirby: King of Comics, I believe? You bring up a great point about the film culture Lee/Kirby were exposed to informing Doom’s creation, though - I wonder if either of them ever saw Zorro or Man in the Iron Mask? I have a couple Doom & Bruce Wayne origin parallels in my pocket that I’d like to invoke at some point, it WOULD be interesting if there was any Zorro or even Lone Ranger rattling around in Jack or Stan’s brains when dreaming up Doom’s look or his origins.

( And thanks!! )

[Iron Maiden]

Iron Maiden, you and I are on the exact same page! Like literally, I had that twomorrows interview bookmarked *and* that quote about Kirby’s dad pissing off European nobility LOL! The source is an excerpt from Kirby: King of Comics, I believe? You bring up a great point about the film culture Lee/Kirby were exposed to informing Doom’s creation, though - I wonder if either of them ever saw Zorro or Man in the Iron Mask? I have a couple Doom & Bruce Wayne origin parallels in my pocket that I’d like to invoke at some point, it WOULD be interesting if there was any Zorro or even Lone Ranger rattling around in Jack or Stan’s brains when dreaming up Doom’s look or his origins.

( And thanks!! )

You're Welcome.

I wouldn't doubt if Zorro or the Lone Ranger would play a role in inspiring their work since they were quite popular in the 1950s.


I am a fan of the Twomorrows site. They have some great publications. I have purchased a number of issues of the Jack Kirby Collector, mostly those that have articles about the Fantastic Four and other Marvel works. I've bought some of the Back Issue magazine too, esp the one that had a round table discussion with a number of Fantastic Four writers, including Stan. I will dig that up because they had a small side discussion about Doom I may quote here. I love how you can buy a digital version of their magazines too

I've seen a number of issues where Stan brings up The Man in the Iron Mask. I do think he was referring to the film form the 1930's and not the novel (although he did probably read that too) I think Kirby may have brought up that movie also but right now I haven't tracked down those interviews yet. But from looking at stills from the film you can see Kirby getting some ideas from that.

[ImperiusWrecked]

You know what I miss? The Doom Hell Armor. Like I wish he had kept that for a while longer, and I prefer it so much more than the warthog tribunal mask.



Been catching up on the thread and WOW what a great tattoo!

For Victor's tattoos my idea would be like something like a magic script that he could activate in an emergency, you know he would be prepared for any situation where he might need extra power.

[DoomScribe]

Fantastic Four #24 out this week includes a pretty cool variant Doom cover for the Fortnite X Marvel promo:
Fantastic Four 24 2020 variant cover.jpg

Alas, Doom does not appear in this issue.

As to the Doom appearances Database, it's still going but far too ponderous to post here. I have 1234 actual appearances to date, plus over 300 alternate universe titles and more than 250 minor appearances including variant covers. I do not know what happened to the ranked list, Iron Maiden used to transfer it over to each new appreciation thread, but it looks like it got lost. I haven't updated that in many years also.

[DoomScribe]

Adding this - my LCS hooked me up with this signed print by Steve Rude:

2020-10-04 13.58.44.jpg

Old school stuff but I like it.

[Iron Maiden]

Old school or not that it a great print! I also went to Gamestop today to pre-order my Marvel Legends Retro Doctor Doom, which should come out Oct. 15. It was pushed back from the 2nd. Some online stores might have it stock though.

Fantastic Four #24 out this week includes a pretty cool variant Doom cover for the Fortnite X Marvel promo:
Fantastic Four 24 2020 variant cover.jpg

Alas, Doom does not appear in this issue.

As to the Doom appearances Database, it's still going but far too ponderous to post here. I have 1234 actual appearances to date, plus over 300 alternate universe titles and more than 250 minor appearances including variant covers. I do not know what happened to the ranked list, Iron Maiden used to transfer it over to each new appreciation thread, but it looks like it got lost. I haven't updated that in many years also.

Yeah, it got tougher to save stuff from this thread when they decided to reboot all the larger appreciation threads. Then they would lock & close the old one. That's why I keep the links in my signature line. It does make me wonder how big the original thread would be by now if it wasn't closed.

It's too bad that your database might be too large to post her as a PDF. I used to have a version of Excel/Access that would allow for exports to PDFs but don't know about current versions with MS 365...which crashed the other day. I'm glad I never signed on for that. I still have an old install disc for MS Office 2003.

[connorhawkes]

Fantastic Four #24 out this week includes a pretty cool variant Doom cover for the Fortnite X Marvel promo:
Fantastic Four 24 2020 variant cover.jpg

Alas, Doom does not appear in this issue.

As to the Doom appearances Database, it's still going but far too ponderous to post here. I have 1234 actual appearances to date, plus over 300 alternate universe titles and more than 250 minor appearances including variant covers. I do not know what happened to the ranked list, Iron Maiden used to transfer it over to each new appreciation thread, but it looks like it got lost. I haven't updated that in many years also.

Oh man I’m so interested in the alternate universe titles especially, those are such a pain to track down by themselves I wish there was a way they could be shared, that sucks

Also that Steve Rude piece is soooo good! I always keep a look out for his F4 work, it’s always great stuff

And Iron Maiden, that Back Issue excerpt about Doom would be super cool to see! I always love reading insight from the creators on Doom, I wish there was more easily accessible info beyond the wiki page

[Iron Maiden]

Oh man I’m so interested in the alternate universe titles especially, those are such a pain to track down by themselves I wish there was a way they could be shared, that sucks

Also that Steve Rude piece is soooo good! I always keep a look out for his F4 work, it’s always great stuff

And Iron Maiden, that Back Issue excerpt about Doom would be super cool to see! I always love reading insight from the creators on Doom, I wish there was more easily accessible info beyond the wiki page

I'll see if I can post something later, after I look through my magazine collection.

[Reviresco]

Hey all,

A few pages ago I told y'all I was getting a battle damaged Doom tattoo. Well thanks to COVID that was delayed massively but I just got the first session done yesterday. Needs another session for background and to finish the obvious bits but here it is, as well as the Larocca cover it's based on:

Attachment 101140

Attachment 101141

Whaddya think?

AWESOME! Great choice for inspiration too.

Wow....the artist did an excellent job. Definitely worthy of Doom. So what is the consensus....does Doom have any tattoos? I can see him having a dragon or something.

Hmmm. Not so sure about Doom having a tattoo, for some reason.

[Iron Maiden]

AWESOME! Great choice for inspiration too.





Hmmm. Not so sure about Doom having a tattoo, for some reason.

I think if he did get one, he may have had it done while in Tibet as part of some ritual while studying the mystic arts of the sect that he lived with for an unknown number of years.

[connorhawkes]

I think if he did get one, he may have had it done while in Tibet as part of some ritual while studying the mystic arts of the sect that he lived with for an unknown number of years.

Yeah, i think I’m with ImperiusWrecked if I was being sincere about Doom tatts.. I think maybe some runes on his wrist or forearm for quick activation would be useful and realistic for him, even if armored since he can peel off the gauntlets faster than anything else.

Also thank you for taking the time to check! No rush at all

[FRC Coazze]

Aconyte books revealed the cover by Fabio Listrani for "The Harrowing of Doom" book.




I like it a lot, pretty cool design. Can't wait for the book.

[Iron Maiden]

Thanks for posting that.....I had forgotten all about that book. I am definitely going to get that.

[Iron Maiden]

Finally found my copy of Back Issue magazine that has the Fantastic Four roundtable. Since this interview was conducted both Stan Lee (2018) and Len Wein (2017) have passed away So without further adieu......

Fantastic Four Roundtable - Back Issue #7 December 2004

"For this roundtable discussion we have submitted 12 questions about this landmark series to it's co-creator, Stan Lee and 20 other comics professionals. Most of them have written, drawn, or edited The Fantastic Four over its long history; all have been influenced by it. Most people responded to the questionnaire via email; Gerry Conway and Alex Ross instead asked to be interviewed by phone. " - Peter Sanderson

Scanning through the article, here are some of the contributors:

Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, Len Wein, John Byrne, Tom Brevoort, Tom DeFalco, Alex Ross, Mark Evanier ( colleague & friend of Jack Kirby), Chris Claremont, Mark Waid, Rich Buckler, Marv Wolfman, Gerry Conway, Paul Ryan, Kurt Busiek, Jerry Ordway, Steve Rude, Walt Simonson, Roger Stern and Karl Kesel.

The first time Doom comes up is with the question about favorite character. In fact he is mentioned more in this section than the question about Fantastic Four villains (which I will do later)

SANDERSON: Who is your favorite character in Fantastic Four other than Reed, Sue, Johnny, and Ben, and why?

LEE: Doctor Doom. Because, to me, he’s the most unique of villains.

BREVOORT: Doctor Doom, the first of the stylish, sophisticated villains of the comics, so original, so trendsetting at the time of his conception and development that the specialness has almost been lost over the years, as so many other characters have played riffs off of the elements that originally made Doom unique.

ENGLEHART: Doctor Doom, because he’s a first-class villain who helped make the FF a first-class storyline.

WOLFMAN: Doctor Doom, arguably the best villain ever created in comics,with the richest and most textured origin and characterization.

CONWAY: Willie Lumpkin . I ’m kidding! Stan and Jack in issue #10? Doctor Doom, because he’s the dark side of the Fantastic Four, of adolescent angst. And he has a sense of honor and the potential for redemption.

BUCKLER: Doctor Doom.

BUSIEK: Um . . . either Franklin for fleshing out the family that much more, or Doom for being such a terrifically majestic, compelling villain.

ROSS: Doctor Doom, the tragic figure creating a very exciting villain. The relationship between Doom and Reed is spun from the same source from the Luthor-Superman relationship: The accident that scarred one of them that leads to resentment. The interesting thing about [Doom and Reed] is they’re two geniuses driven by creativity, unlike Luthor, who was science-based, and Superman, who wasn’t creating things. It’s like Doom comes up with c creative schemes jus t to impress Reed: Look upon my works and be impressed. Reed is in this ego conflict with Doom, like the competingegos of anybody in a creative industry, especially when it comes to creating art. Reed and Doom are the yin and yang of comic-book artists! There’s a Reed and a Doom in all of us. My second choice would be the Black Panther, the first black super-hero in [mainstream] comics, or Black Bolt, because of the Inhumans as a group, not him as an individual.

WEIN: Well, I’d love to give a shout out to my main man, Willie Lumpkin, but to be serious, it has to be Victor Von Doom. There is a breadth and depth to that character that
still hasn’t fully been explored, and we’ve been working on it for over 40 years. Right
after Vic, however, I would have to add the Impossible Man. God, there’s something
about writing that pointy-headed foul-up that I absolutely adore.

CLAREMONT: Doom is one, the Impossible Man, another (and, I confess, Valeria is third). [Chris Claremont introduced Reed and Sue’s daughter, Valeria, as a teenager from an alternate future. She was later born in the FF’s present-day timeline.] Doom, basically because he’s Reed’s primal opposite. He presents the opportunity to present a character who can be as close to three-dimensional, and yet remain majestically larger than life, as any in comics. Impy is the exact opposite, one sight gag after another, the perfect opportunity to puncture any and all hope of pretentiousness with giggles and a visual aesthetic derived from Will Elder and Wally Wood. Valeria: sorry, but she’s my (small) contribution to the canon and I felt like I’d only scratched the surface of her stories when I had to leave the book. And also, Salva [Salvador Larroca] drew her so beautifully. Also, there’s Namor, for many of the reasons that apply to Doom, except that he’s essentially a good guy and he carries a blazing torch for Sue. If that isn’t food for conflict and heartbreak, what is?

THOMAS: None of the others really ever mattered to me, unless you count Sub-Mariner and Dr. Doom, in that order

SIMONSON: Too many to choose from because the book has had such an impressive roster of guests and villains. Black Panther and Galactus are two that instantly spring to mind. But there are a lot of choices. And of course, I loved Weezie’s [Louise Simonson’s] version of Franklin over in Power Pack. ;-)

DeFALCO: I certainly had a lot of fun with Franklin because I got to see the man he would become and Reed and Sue should be proud. [Tom DeFalco introduced an older version of Franklin from an alternate future.] BYRNE: Alicia Masters. She was a dream to write. It seemed like every time I approached her I found new layers, new
nuances.

STERN: I’d have to say Alicia Masters. She’s been part of the “family” since issue #8, she’s been a big part of the Thing’s life, and the Surfer’s, and the Torch’s, though the last was later explained away.

EVANIER: I liked the Silver Surfer in his earliest, purest form. There was something very fresh about the character, the way he reacted to people around him, and the way they reacted to him. I’m one of those folks who never cared for him after he started to figure out the human race, perhaps because I haven’t.

KESEL: Dragon Man. Like a million other Lee/Kirby concepts, he’s brilliantly realized—capable of raging like a wild animal one instant, as innocent as a puppy the next. More than any other FF character, Dragon Man touches the 12-year-old fan in me—probably because he’s the kind of “dog” I would have killed to have had as a kid. In fact, I once heard that Roy Thomas (I believe) was going to have the FF take in Dragon Man as their pet—which the 12-year-old in me would have loved to see!

ORDWAY: I am a big fan of Wyatt Wingfoot. Again, the book was so good during that time. And if you reread the issue where the Torch goes off to college [#50], you can see how brilliant the creators were to keep changing the status quo—virtually rebooting the storylines every year or so. Wyatt was such a strong character, yet he needed no powers.

RYAN: Willie Lumpkin. You just gotta love those ears. Reminds me of myself when I was younger

The article also included a Steve Rude sketch