Victor Von Doom: Dr Doom Appreciation 2020

[FRC Coazze]

Ok, i've read issue #10 and no: that was totally uncalled for. It just came out of nowhere. Yes, the alternate Victor was pushing our Doom's buttons and I can see him reacting aggressively to that... but what he did makes no sense whatsoever.

I must admit, I feel like this series went downward after issue #7. Issue #7 was great, but than everything started feeling rushed. I still don't like issue #8, #9 I enjoyed (even if Reed was at the best of his jerkiness), this issue again felt very rushed. The whole wormhole subplot is so condensed I still don't fully grasp what happened with Brashear and the alternate Octavius. Same with M.O.D.O.K.: how did he know about Fruszina? Was he having visions of the alternate reality as well? I guess so, but it's not really explained (or did I miss something?). There were so many interesting subplot threads that instead of intertwining with the main plot they were cut and tied to it very quickly. I feel like this story needed much more space than what it was given. That said, it remains a very good series for me.

Oh well... let's hope the King in Black issue is better. From the previews it seems good.

So I'm a bit behind due to the Holidays (I actually did briefly have the opportunity to catch up but what can you do right?) but from what I'm hearing I wouldn't be surprised if it was some sort of mandate. Or alternatively it was written into a corner.

Cantwell did say he had plans and I think we know what they are. So if what I'm hearing about him destroying the alternate universe and him proceeding to have a stroke the next arc is correct then it might've had a point somewhere. It would've been something meant to pay off in a later story but with Doom getting cancelled it just makes Doom look out of character since we now don't know what the follow-up was leading to. So basically something as big as this is just seen as cleaning the board rather than furthering Doom's story.

Or maybe Slott has another story about batteries IDK.

Yep, I agree. It feels like he had absolutely to finish it one way or another. And the end just left me wondering what's gonna happen next. I still hope he'll get the chance to write the next arc he has in mind.

[Iron Maiden]

I am glad you liked the news

Al Ewing said he would not reveal yet who´s Doom talking with, I think he could be talking with Agent Brand, the leader of SWORD or to Magneto who´s Krakoa´s liaison with SWORD.

In the comic a team of Sword, supported by Krakoa, took something from a secret place at the center of the universe, we don´t know yet why or what for but it´s probably going to be a powerful item hence Doom´s warning about doing that.

I wonder if Hickman will include Doom in his X-books now that the character has been freed up by having Marvel cancel his series. Even though I don't like the ending of #10 I would have liked to have seen that second arc Cantwell had planned.

[Iron Maiden]

So I'm a bit behind due to the Holidays (I actually did briefly have the opportunity to catch up but what can you do right?) but from what I'm hearing I wouldn't be surprised if it was some sort of mandate. Or alternatively it was written into a corner.

Cantwell did say he had plans and I think we know what they are. So if what I'm hearing about him destroying the alternate universe and him proceeding to have a stroke the next arc is correct then it might've had a point somewhere. It would've been something meant to pay off in a later story but with Doom getting cancelled it just makes Doom look out of character since we now don't know what the follow-up was leading to. So basically something as big as this is just seen as cleaning the board rather than furthering Doom's story.

Or maybe Slott has another story about batteries IDK.

That is an interesting theory. So as a consequence of his actions, or some kind of extreme agitation, Doom would suffer a stroke? I know Cantwell said Doom wanted a composer to revisit the events in his life. Maybe gets a crisis of conscience over what he did. Where did that Ultimate Nullifier go at the end of #10? It wasn't made very clear.

[Lucyinthesky]

I wonder if Hickman will include Doom in his X-books now that the character has been freed up by having Marvel cancel his series. Even though I don't like the ending of #10 I would have liked to have seen that second arc Cantwell had planned.

I hope Hickman has plans for Victor and the X-men but he probably will develop them later, after Ewing does his thing on 2021

Yes I would have liked to see more of Victor questioning himself for a second arc it could have led to interesting places for him and other characters on the MU.

[DoomScribe]

I remember a funny story that Hickman did some years back while he was in the middle of the Secret Wars 2015 arc, I think. It was a one-shot or fill-in issue called Secret Wars Too. He was basically lamenting that he didn't know how to end it.
https://kotaku.com/one-of-marvel-s-b...ari-1743269178

It reminds me that big stories are often difficult to finish. There were a lot of loose ends in the Doctor Doom series ending, and I agree that after #7 it really started to feel rushed. That lead to a feeling that we weren't getting the whole story, that subplots were not resolved and characters were short-changed of their basic motivations in order to reach the end. I can see in this story how it probably had to end with our Doom destroying the other Doom, but the way it was done wasn't right. I can imagine that Cantwell was told he had to finish it by issue 10 because they were cancelling. At least we got some kind of ending, even if we didn't like it.

I thought about going through all the ways I think he got it wrong, but I'm not going to do that. We all have our own personal interpretation of what is Doom and who he is and what drives him. We are also subjected to the whims of Marvel editorial, whether we agree with them or not, and that's what we get. I don't think this version honors the Doctor Doom created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, enhanced by many other writers along the way, including Byrne, Simonson, Roger Stern, John Francis Moore, Brubaker, Hickman ... many others I'm forgetting. So, we got a story and an ending. Like it or not, Doom will live on.

ds

[Iron Maiden]

I remember a funny story that Hickman did some years back while he was in the middle of the Secret Wars 2015 arc, I think. It was a one-shot or fill-in issue called Secret Wars Too. He was basically lamenting that he didn't know how to end it.
https://kotaku.com/one-of-marvel-s-b...ari-1743269178

It reminds me that big stories are often difficult to finish. There were a lot of loose ends in the Doctor Doom series ending, and I agree that after #7 it really started to feel rushed. That lead to a feeling that we weren't getting the whole story, that subplots were not resolved and characters were short-changed of their basic motivations in order to reach the end. I can see in this story how it probably had to end with our Doom destroying the other Doom, but the way it was done wasn't right. I can imagine that Cantwell was told he had to finish it by issue 10 because they were cancelling. At least we got some kind of ending, even if we didn't like it.

I thought about going through all the ways I think he got it wrong, but I'm not going to do that. We all have our own personal interpretation of what is Doom and who he is and what drives him. We are also subjected to the whims of Marvel editorial, whether we agree with them or not, and that's what we get. I don't think this version honors the Doctor Doom created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, enhanced by many other writers along the way, including Byrne, Simonson, Roger Stern, John Francis Moore, Brubaker, Hickman ... many others I'm forgetting. So, we got a story and an ending. Like it or not, Doom will live on.

ds

I think this is probably close to where I am now. I think 90-95% of the comic was one of the best interpretations of Doom since Hickman. I am going to have to check out his Phoenix appearance but I still think he won't be in the final round of contenders, howevery this thing is going to get managed. Al Ewing's little hint posted in Lucyinthesky's post is something I will check out too.

Also wanted to add according to Comixology's site, Doctor Doom #10 was in their top 20 for digital sales last week, and that is including all of their special sales on Masterworks for where you could buy a volume of a title that is normally $16 for 84 cents( ! ) Yes, you are reading that correctly and the sales runs until January 3rd.

[DoomScribe]

Yeah, I don't think sales was really any reason for finishing it early. They might say so, but I'm not buying it. I think they look at a series like this and they're only giving it a shot even while counting on it to fail.

I've always wondered why we never got that young Doom trilogy series from some years past. The excuse was that the artist had some personal issues and fell behind, but that's not all of it. It wouldn't have been the first time that Marvel started with one artist and finished with another (or two or three others). What was weird about that story was that they were actively promoting it... we had covers for all three issues, their were story blurbs out for all three, the story had to have been already written, why not get a substitute artist to finish?

I sometimes think that Marvel doesn't really know how to handle Doctor Doom. He's a villain, or he's not ... he's not a hero, not an anti-hero, he's a king but morally ambiguous? (no more than any other politician) He's powerful and smart, but he can't be too powerful or too much smarter than the heroes who have to ultimately defeat him. I think they have him wrong as often as not, and if with Disney now calling the shots they have to worry about his cinematic presence as well ... don't want to influence the little kids or teach them that sometimes men do bad things for good reasons. But Marvel comics has put out nauseatingly bad portrayals too, so I can't really blame the coming cinema universe. My worry is always that the next generation of fans will only see the bad versions, and not understand that there is more than that to know. But Marvel doesn't want him to be a popular hero-type character, the way Venom took off, or the Punisher, or even Magneto. They need him to be the big bad.

I do hope that Marvel doesn't Disney-fy Victor Von Doom into someone or something unrecognizable so that they can have an end-game villain for the multitudinous Marvel heroes that now crowd the movie franchises. I will hold out hope, but I wouldn't want to give odds.

[Doom'nGloom]

So finally read Cantwell's solo at one sitting. It was great except the last issue. Doom never struck me as someone who would claim there is no good inside him. While he can be extremely cruel at times I don't think he would spit on everything he accomplished in another universe out of spite either. Other than that I really like how Cantwell wrote Doom. I especially loved how the inner monologue of Doom is given as journal entries where he questions some of his actions throughout the series. Unfortunately this makes the ending even more jarring than it already is.

[Iron Maiden]

Doomscribe and JustaDoombot

I have just read a lengthy Doctor Doom series "exit interview" Cantwell just gave this morning at Adventures in Poor Taste and I feel more enlightened by what he was conveying with that ending. Whether you agree with Cantwell's thoughts or not you have to admit you have to appreciate that he did give us one of the most thought provoking takes on Doom out there.

I think this quote that occurs towards the end in a discussion about how Reed can be as petty as Doom is probably the most insightful....

AIPT: And while Doom has never been able to kill Reed, he has no problem destroying his more successful doppelganger and everything he helped build just for making our Victor confront hard truths about himself. At the end of the day, do you think Doom’s greatest enemy will always be himself?



CC: Yep. Always. And that’s how I justify this evil act in my head. Some readers were mad that Doom killed an entire universe, which included his kids. It included every nice person you’ve ever met in Marvel history. It included Aunt May. I mean think about it. He killed everyone. Morgan Le Fay. The West Coast Avengers. He killed Ms. Marvel. He killed Power Pack. He killed all the Watchers. Eternity. Thanos. He killed your dad. He killed bacterium in the water on Mars. F-----g everything.

Why?

Because in that split second moment, he saw it all as a reflection of himself. A reflection of himself that was admittedly being a little condescending (and thusly not perfect). A reflection of himself he worried he could never reach. A reflection of himself that in order to become he would have to invalidate who he was.

Was he thinking universal genocide? No.

He was shattering a mirror out of momentary rage.
Despite the scope of the crime, I only think it was murder in the second degree. It was a crime of passion. It just included an entire existence. Like… imagine Captain America biting into a subway sandwich and just being instantly nullified. No idea how it happened. The Thing going to the bathroom and there’s no toilet paper left. Blink. He killed Kang again. He killed Victorious, wherever she was.

But he wasn’t thinking about any of that in that moment. He was thinking only of himself.

And that is — now literally — his most fatal flaw.


AIPT: While you show plenty of signs of humanity within Doom throughout the series, your final statement on the character appears to be that there is no good in him — he is Death’s greatest servant (as she suggested he would be in Doctor Doom #3). Is this an accurate read, or are these final proclamations yet another mask Doom hides behind?

CC: That’s not my statement. That’s Doom’s statement. It’s funny how often people get that confused in comics. Doom says there’s no good in him. But we just read 10 issues where there seemed to be quite a lot in him. He’s feeling sorry for himself in this final page. He’s justifying what he just did. He might even be covering up some real guilt. And yeah, Death got him on a technicality, but I don’t think it’s a title he’ll privately be proud of, even if later he touts it as a threat or boast to his enemies down the road.

So yes. He’s totally retreated back behind his mask at the end. If anything, this doesn’t prove he’s eternally evil. It proves that he has a strong streak of cowardice he has yet to overcome or even acknowledge.



Me again... I have to admit I did not consider that last statement by Doom about himself this way and took it as the author saying that Doom had no good in him. I should have known better than to take it at face value. You have to go back to the ending of Triumph and Torment. Doom's plan for redeeming his mother's soul worked because she had to believe that he was allied with Mephisto and betrayed Doctor Strange. He was willing to have her despise him in order to set her soul free.

[Mist@doom]

Hi everybody,

after a little over 10 years,i resurface on the or a Victor Von Doom appreciation thread...during this time i always been a occasional watcher/reader,but thought 10 years and two or three months,were a perfect anniversary type of reason to rejoin!
Not sure,how much i will participate...but well see.

[Mist@doom]

Back then,i had a quick chat with Iron Maiden and not much else....but i always love to read anything new about our Latverian Monarch!

[Iron Maiden]

Wow....ten years! Welcome back Mist@doom. We're flattered that you remembered our little section of the forum. Later today I will be reading the King in Black tie in featuring an Iron Man/Doom team-up against....Santa Claus! So look for a review / discussion of that. I will probably start a separate thread if there are spoilers to be had. But I will put a link here just in case.

[Reviresco]

Hi everybody,

after a little over 10 years,i resurface on the or a Victor Von Doom appreciation thread...during this time i always been a occasional watcher/reader,but thought 10 years and two or three months,were a perfect anniversary type of reason to rejoin!
Not sure,how much i will participate...but well see.

Welcome back!!


And looking forward to that issue of Doom and Iron Man together again!


Also, I took advantage of the holiday sale ($55 for a year's subscription!), and signed up for Marvel Unlimited. A WEALTH of Doom goodness now awaits me in the New Year!!!

[Mist@doom]

Wow....ten years! Welcome back Mist@doom. We're flattered that you remembered our little section of the forum. Later today I will be reading the King in Black tie in featuring an Iron Man/Doom team-up against....Santa Claus! So look for a review / discussion of that. I will probably start a separate thread if there are spoilers to be had. But I will put a link here just in case.

Thanks!
It is quite a while and 2010 was a great year,with Hickman's Fantastic Four run really started to roll.(for me)
My letter/e-mail got printed in Fantastic Four#583 and it is still one of my favorite issues if not my favorite....aside from getting my letter printed. (Daan Joziasse)

About current Doom involving issues...i actually am reading the material of 2010,right now and am close to ending the "fall of the Hulks" storyline,to continue with FF 580. (wich,according to Jonathan,pick's up after F.O.T.H. i believe)

Offcourse,i read most Doom involving comic story lines,but always found my reading experience a bit rushed or lacking.....so,i dove in the 2015 FF run and finished that a few months ago and thought....i might as well revisite one of the favorite FF run's.
I am a bit of a troubled reader....meaning taking "my sweet time" to absorb detail.....a bit odd,but hey!

The most current thing ,i read was Slot's Doom appearance in current FF, (ugh!) but i naturally picked up cantwell's Doom serie and pretty much every comic Doom was in.
Except the avengers phoenix comic.....and waiting for Santa,Tony and Victor to arrive in a local store. (or rather,waiting for the store to re-open....most are closed in Holland at this time!)

[Mist@doom]

Thanks Reviresco!