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  1. #1756
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I know they weren't written that way. But that's the point I'm making. By the way that their story goes, if Bucky was a female character they most likely would have. It's called heteronormativity. The fact that they were childhood friends doesn't really change anything imo cause there's like a million stories where two opposite-gender childhood friends realize they're in love with each other after they grow up, and/or one has always been pining for the other.

    I'm honestly not even criticizing Marvel. Like of course they wouldn't do that. I'm just explaining why I feel like there's more to it than just "they're just guys who are friends and people ship them for no reason".

    I actually quite liked Steve/Peggy in the first movie, I think CEvans and Hayley have good chemistry and it was interesting as this sort of tragic romance that didn't get to come to fruition. Then Endgame happened, with no buildup, after Peggy had moved on already on Agent Carter, and yeah, no.
    And there are a million stories that don't end like that either. Heteronormativity is a thing but so is toxic masculinity, which teaches men that they can't have a deep love for another man that is platonic. Society is more likely to accept this kind of relationship with women than it is with men. How many 'chick flicks' have we had for decades were you've got two women that have been friends since childhood and at the end of the film, don't end up together as a couple? It never becomes a thing and people rarely ship those kinds of characters because women having deep platonic relationships is normalised and it isn't for men.

    Stucky isn't as random as Stony and I can understand how people could read the relationship that way. But in a different way I think it's also not good that people automatically think two men that care for each other deeply have to be in love with each other. It's the opposite extreme end of the pendulum swing and is problematic in its own way.

    But to get back on topic, I don't think you have anything to worry about with Wiccan and Hulkling. Disney may not be the most progressive movie studio but I also think they know when to avoid backlash, especially with characters that have an established sexuality. They could get away with Poe and Finn for this very reason.

  2. #1757
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    And there are a million stories that don't end like that either. Heteronormativity is a thing but so is toxic masculinity, which teaches men that they can't have a deep love for another man that is platonic. Society is more likely to accept this kind of relationship with women than it is with men. How many 'chick flicks' have we had for decades were you've got two women that have been friends since childhood and at the end of the film, don't end up together as a couple? It never becomes a thing and people rarely ship those kinds of characters because women having deep platonic relationships is normalised and it isn't for men.
    Yeah, there's kind of a stigma for childhood friends losing...of course, there's tropes for both scenarios .

  3. #1758
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    But to get back on topic, I don't think you have anything to worry about with Wiccan and Hulkling. Disney may not be the most progressive movie studio but I also think they know when to avoid backlash, especially with characters that have an established sexuality. They could get away with Poe and Finn for this very reason.
    I think there are and there aren't reasons to be concerned about when it comes to Disney. Like, when it comes to actually letting characters be queer, I don't think there should be concern. Any character who is canonically LGBTQ in the comics can be LGBTQ in the movies/shows too. They definitely wouldn't want to deliberately straightwash anyone to avoid backlash.

    However, I do think there should be a concern on how things are developed/portrayed. Marvel has had exactly three canonical queer characters in the MCU so far, and two of them got the scenes that hinted at their sexualities cut. The only queer character whose queerness actually made it onscreen was random gay Joe Russo.... and we know there WAS backlash to that, because it's obviously not what fans wanted in terms of gay rep. Characters like Loki and Korg, who are canonically queer in the comics, never had their sexuality/gender explored at all in the movies (although that may change with the upcoming Loki show, and hopefully it will).

    So, their history so far doesn't inspire a lot of hope when it comes to the Young Avengers and getting the representation that fans actually expect from this particular franchise. Assuming they would get a Disney+ show, the only other examples we have of queer rep is High School Musical: The Musical: The Series and Diary Of A Future President, which are kid-oriented shows that treat its queer characters with kiddie-gloves and definitely not with the same standards of straight characters. And of course, when Disney+ HAD the opportunity to actually do something that felt groundbreaking in terms of queer characters leading a show (Love, Victor), they chickened out and decided to move the project to another platform because it wasn't ''family-friendly'' (which is honestly bullshit, because I watched that show and there is nothing there that's not present in some other stuff that's on Disney+).

    In conclusion, my concern is not really that they won't let Billy and Teddy (and other canon queer characters like America) be queer, but that they won't do it in a satisfying way. I can totally see Disney pulling a High School Musical on Young Avengers and forcing a straight couple that was never that relevant in the comics (like Cassie/Nate or Eli/Kate) to be the romantic core of the story just so Wiccan/Hulkling can be the peripheral couple, being there just enough so they can get woke points, but not enough to actually do justice to how their relationship is in the comics.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 12-03-2020 at 02:10 PM.

  4. #1759
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    OK NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING MORE POSITIVE LOOK HOW FREAKING CUTE THOSE PICTURES ARE (from the Clint Barton thread):

    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post
    I just know Lucky's gonna steal this show. And Hailee looks SO good.

    Also, Vera Farmiga was cast as Eleanor Bishop on the Hawkeye show according to Variety, which comes as a huge surprise to me, because I really thought we would just see Derek. I wonder if they're going with Heinberg's version of Eleanor or Thompson's huge retcon of the character. Either way, I feel like if they are bothering to add Kate's mom to the show, it's gonna end up being a tragic story. I also hope Susan shows up, and get a wink wink moment with her hinting that she's gonna get married soon. God, I REALLY want the wedding scene from Young Avengers #1 to be in the MCU. I'm going to be so disappointed if it's not.

  5. #1760
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    OK NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING MORE POSITIVE LOOK HOW FREAKING CUTE THOSE PICTURES ARE (from the Clint Barton thread):



    I just know Lucky's gonna steal this show. And Hailee looks SO good.

    Also, Vera Farmiga was cast as Eleanor Bishop on the Hawkeye show according to Variety, which comes as a huge surprise to me, because I really thought we would just see Derek. I wonder if they're going with Heinberg's version of Eleanor or Thompson's huge retcon of the character. Either way, I feel like if they are bothering to add Kate's mom to the show, it's gonna end up being a tragic story. I also hope Susan shows up, and get a wink wink moment with her hinting that she's gonna get married soon. God, I REALLY want the wedding scene from Young Avengers #1 to be in the MCU. I'm going to be so disappointed if it's not.
    I've seen some speculating Eleanor might end up becoming the real MCU Madame Masque.

  6. #1761
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I've seen some speculating Eleanor might end up becoming the real MCU Madame Masque.
    I've seen that too and that would definitely be.... something. It would radically change the dynamic between Masque and Kate from the comics, not sure if for the better or not. Part of me kind of wants them to just do Heinberg's original vision for Eleanor and make her be this benevolent heiress who inspired Kate, and maybe her death could be used as Kate's motivation to be a hero in the MCU. Derek's probably gonna still be a bad guy anyway so they could still use that parent/child conflict with him. On the other hand, it's Vera Farmiga and it would be a shame to waste her on playing the mom character whose only purpose is to die, so it would be interesting to give her a meatier role. I feel conflicted. But I'm excited to see what they're gonna do!
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 12-03-2020 at 02:58 PM.

  7. #1762
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    I think there are and there aren't reasons to be concerned about when it comes to Disney. Like, when it comes to actually letting characters be queer, I don't think there should be concern. Any character who is canonically LGBTQ in the comics can be LGBTQ in the movies/shows too. They definitely wouldn't want to deliberately straightwash anyone to avoid backlash.

    However, I do think there should be a concern on how things are developed/portrayed. Marvel has had exactly three canonical queer characters in the MCU so far, and two of them got the scenes that hinted at their sexualities cut. The only queer character whose queerness actually made it onscreen was random gay Joe Russo.... and we know there WAS backlash to that, because it's obviously not what fans wanted in terms of gay rep. Characters like Loki and Korg, who are canonically queer in the comics, never had their sexuality/gender explored at all in the movies (although that may change with the upcoming Loki show, and hopefully it will).

    So, their history so far doesn't inspire a lot of hope when it comes to the Young Avengers and getting the representation that fans actually expect from this particular franchise. Assuming they would get a Disney+ show, the only other examples we have of queer rep is High School Musical: The Musical: The Series and Diary Of A Future President, which are kid-oriented shows that treat its queer characters with kiddie-gloves and definitely not with the same standards of straight characters. And of course, when Disney+ HAD the opportunity to actually do something that felt groundbreaking in terms of queer characters leading a show (Love, Victor), they chickened out and decided to move the project to another platform because it wasn't ''family-friendly'' (which is honestly bullshit, because I watched that show and there is nothing there that's not present in some other stuff that's on Disney+).

    In conclusion, my concern is not really that they won't let Billy and Teddy (and other canon queer characters like America) be queer, but that they won't do it in a satisfying way. I can totally see Disney pulling a High School Musical on Young Avengers and forcing a straight couple that was never that relevant in the comics (like Cassie/Nate or Eli/Kate) to be the romantic core of the story just so Wiccan/Hulkling can be the peripheral couple, being there just enough so they can get woke points, but not enough to actually do justice to how their relationship is in the comics.
    I agree with all of this too. I really do hope for the best and fans like you and others get what they deserve too.

    Also, I didn't know Korg was queer. I was really disappointed with how they handled Valkyrie though, considering Tessa Thompson being very notably LGBTQ and Taika Waititi being an ally.

  8. #1763
    Astonishing Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
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    Tessa said that in Thor Ragnarok Valkyrie would be looking for a wife so that'll probably come up there

  9. #1764
    Fantastic Member Waking Replica's Avatar
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    Speaking of Heinberg, I hope to whatever higher power they let him write the series (at this point I think it's inevitable YA will have a series as their main thing, and have event showings in the movies). He has the experience and he'd literally be the perfect balance of adult themes meets Disney. And I know he would be as invested as possible to get them all right.

    And on Vera being included in Hawkeye, cheers to that!!! She's one of my fav actresses! Hopefully they let her flex her acting chops with Eleanor, whether she be good or the villain

  10. #1765
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    OMG YALL SOMEONE JUST POINTED OUT THAT HAWKEYE APPARENTLY TAKES PLACE IN 2025??? LOOK AT THE RED POSTER BESIDES KATE



    This completely fucks up the timeline I had for the Young Avengers in my head. Because I really thought they were gonna debut at the exact year of 2023, due to Cassie being 16 during that year. If the show takes place in 2025, then Cassie is going to be AT LEAST 18 when the Young Avengers form? That is SO weird. It makes me wonder if they're gonna make Kate slightly older too. And that's not even getting into the weirdness about Billy/Tommy and how the hell they're planning on explaining their ages in the MCU..... I really hope we don't end up with too much of a discrepancy among the ages of those characters.

  11. #1766
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    I've seen that too and that would definitely be.... something. It would radically change the dynamic between Masque and Kate from the comics, not sure if for the better or not. Part of me kind of wants them to just do Heinberg's original vision for Eleanor and make her be this benevolent heiress who inspired Kate, and maybe her death could be used as Kate's motivation to be a hero in the MCU. Derek's probably gonna still be a bad guy anyway so they could still use that parent/child conflict with him. On the other hand, it's Vera Farmiga and it would be a shame to waste her on playing the mom character whose only purpose is to die, so it would be interesting to give her a meatier role. I feel conflicted. But I'm excited to see what they're gonna do!
    Personally I'd rather have Whitney but this would probably be a way of creating a more genuine enmity and dynamic with Kate and Masque than what is in the comics.

  12. #1767
    Astonishing Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
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    Whitney was also in Agent Carter, the only show before Disney+ that Feige worked on.

  13. #1768
    Astonishing Member Beetle's Avatar
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    Kate's mom being Madame Masque would be much better than the weird vampire thing

  14. #1769
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    One thing people noticed from zooming in on the Hailee set pics: it looks like she's using blue contact lenses. I'm genuinely surprised at the effort being put to make her look like comic book Kate. Let's hope this extends to the remaining Young Avengers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Waking Replica View Post
    Speaking of Heinberg, I hope to whatever higher power they let him write the series (at this point I think it's inevitable YA will have a series as their main thing, and have event showings in the movies). He has the experience and he'd literally be the perfect balance of adult themes meets Disney. And I know he would be as invested as possible to get them all right.
    I forgot to reply to this, but yeah, I hope he's involved too. I'd take even a consultant/producer role in case he's too busy to be more involved, but if he could showrun/write/direct, even better. It would be really interesting to see what his take on the team would be for a different media, at a different time.

    And speaking of Young Avengers creators, here's Jim's reaction to Hailee as Kate. I miss when Allan had social media so we could know what he's thinking too.

  15. #1770
    Astonishing Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
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    I hope they'll be able to get Heinberg to showrun the inevitable Young Avengers series

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