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  1. #586
    Astonishing Member Beetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    No, I don't think we've seen any evidence that Billy has ever sought any kind of therapy. The only Young Avenger whom I can think of that's been shown to have a therapist was Kate back in Young Avengers Special, but even that was completely sidelined, since Marvel never discussed her being a sexual assault victim again.

    It's definitely a missed opportunity for Marvel to not go there with Billy, specially considering his own mom is a therapist. There are some interesting angles that could be explored there. It would also be nice if he ever sought fellow magic user Doctor Voodoo for treatment, since he is a psychologist too.
    I feel like there's some issues of having your girlfriend's son (for lack of a better term) as a patient

    Just the fact that they have this one important person in common in their personal lives makes confidentiality an ethical quagmire. Jericho should be able to refer Billy to someone less wrapped up in his extended family

  2. #587
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    I feel like there's some issues of having your girlfriend's son (for lack of a better term) as a patient

    Just the fact that they have this one important person in common in their personal lives makes confidentiality an ethical quagmire. Jericho should be able to refer Billy to someone less wrapped up in his extended family
    The thing is.... I don't actually think Billy should really see Wanda as his mom. Wanda herself revealed in her solo series (to her therapist, nonetheless) that she has trouble connecting with Billy and Tommy because they're not REALLY her children, and I wouldn't be shocked if the feeling was mutual (this is something that could actually be brought up in therapy). I feel like, the way Marvel has portrayed their relationship, Wanda is more of a mentor to Billy. So maybe there is some conflict of interest, but I don't think it's that bad, specially considering that Marvel has just kind of forgotten that Jericho and Wanda became a couple. I wouldn't be shocked if they just broke up off-page at some point.

  3. #588
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    The thing is.... I don't actually think Billy should really see Wanda as his mom. Wanda herself revealed in her solo series (to her therapist, nonetheless) that she has trouble connecting with Billy and Tommy because they're not REALLY her children, and I wouldn't be shocked if the feeling was mutual (this is something that could actually be brought up in therapy). I feel like, the way Marvel has portrayed their relationship, Wanda is more of a mentor to Billy. So maybe there is some conflict of interest, but I don't think it's that bad, specially considering that Marvel has just kind of forgotten that Jericho and Wanda became a couple. I wouldn't be shocked if they just broke up off-page at some point.
    He's called/calls her mom though...I mean, it's complicated, but that's just how their relationship is.

  4. #589
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He's called/calls her mom though...I mean, it's complicated, but that's just how their relationship is.
    Yeah, I'm aware... That's a problem that I had with Al Ewing's New Avengers and it's something I think should be addressed. They didn't have a mother/son relationship up until that point (and they still don't, really), so Billy calling her mom just came off as really weird and out of place. If I had my way, I would explain that maybe he did it because he was trying to be polite or sensitive to her feelings, like maybe he thought that's what she would want him to call her, not knowing that she also doesn't feel completely comfortable in that particular role, since she never actually raised him as a mother. I just want Marvel to treat this relationship with the depth and sense that it deserves, because having them not interact for long periods of time only for them to get like one random issue together and be treated like a family just feels lazy.

  5. #590
    Mighty Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Yeah, I'm aware... That's a problem that I had with Al Ewing's New Avengers and it's something I think should be addressed. They didn't have a mother/son relationship up until that point (and they still don't, really), so Billy calling her mom just came off as really weird and out of place. If I had my way, I would explain that maybe he did it because he was trying to be polite or sensitive to her feelings, like maybe he thought that's what she would want him to call her, not knowing that she also doesn't feel completely comfortable in that particular role, since she never actually raised him as a mother. I just want Marvel to treat this relationship with the depth and sense that it deserves, because having them not interact for long periods of time only for them to get like one random issue together and be treated like a family just feels lazy.
    It's perfectly believable that they worked on their relationship off page. Crusade sent Billy into the depression, volume 2 he finally found himself again so maybe they started to seriously develop the connection, fastforward through all the series since then and there's a lot of grey area to develop a relationship. Just because she didn't raise them doesn't mean she's not their mother, one of my brothers is adopted and he still acknowledges both sets of parents as mom/dad ect despite the awkwardness of it all. I look at their situation the sameway. Though Tommy is probably closer to Wanda as he has no real family except her and Billy. The way they've addressed it so far doesn't strike me as lazy just mutually reserved yet making progress.
    Last edited by Journey; 06-06-2020 at 07:21 PM.

  6. #591
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    It's perfectly believable that they worked on their relationship off page. Crusade sent Billy into the depression, volume 2 he finally found himself again so maybe they started to seriously develop the connection, fastforward through all the series since then and there's a lot of grey area to develop a relationship. Just because she didn't raise them doesn't mean she's not their mother, one of my brothers is adopted and he still acknowledges both sets of parents as mom/dad ect despite the awkwardness of it all. I look at their situation the sameway. Though Tommy is probably closer to Wanda as he has no real family except her and Billy. The way they've addressed it so far doesn't strike me as lazy just mutually reserved yet making progress.
    Off-page development only works if the writers try to explain what happened off-page, but that doesn't happen here. We simply don't know how much Billy and Wanda keep in touch with each other. Something like a mention of how they meet every Saturday for a cup of tea, a magic lesson and/or a private conversation to get to know each other better. If that had been established, it would be a lot easier for me to accept that their relationship had evolved off-page, but between The Children's Crusade and New Avengers, the only moment I can think of that they shared was in Mark Waid's S.H.I.E.L.D. when Billy was shot in front of her and she seemed pretty nonchalant about it. Not motherly at all. Then we went from that straight to him calling her mom in New Avengers. That was four years ago, around the same time the Scarlet Witch book established that she was having a hard time connecting with Billy and Tommy, which implied their relationship was actually not THAT good. As you can see, there wasn't even consistency. Then they never interacted again and we haven't had any mention as to how their relationship was doing ever since. So yeah, I do think that writers just assigning a ''mom/son'' label on them without really explaining how they got there is kinda lazy. Readers shouldn't have to do the hard lifting for a narrative to make sense. That's a writer's job.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 06-07-2020 at 12:46 AM.

  7. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Off-page development only works if the writers try to explain what happened off-page, but that doesn't happen here. We simply don't know how much Billy and Wanda keep in touch with each other. Something like a mention of how they meet every Saturday for a cup of tea, a magic lesson and/or a private conversation to get to know each other better. If that had been established, it would be a lot easier for me to accept that their relationship had evolved off-page, but between The Children's Crusade and New Avengers, the only moment I can think of that they shared was in Mark Waid's S.H.I.E.L.D. when Billy was shot in front of her and she seemed pretty nonchalant about it. Not motherly at all. Then we went from that straight to him calling her mom in New Avengers. That was four years ago, around the same time the Scarlet Witch book established that she was having a hard time connecting to Billy and Tommy, which implied their relationship was actually not THAT good. As you can see, there wasn't even consistency. Then they never interacted again and we haven't had any mention as to how their relationship was doing ever since. So yeah, I do think that writers just assigning a ''mom/son'' label on them without really explaining how they got there is kinda lazy. Readers shouldn't have to do the hard lifting for a narrative to make sense. That's a writer's job.
    I haven't read much of their newer material together but in Children's Crusade, Billy's whole motivation was to prove that Wanda was his mom and Wanda referred to herself as Billy and Tommy's mom. So it certainly does seem like she considers herself their mom and at least Billy regards her that way too.

  8. #593
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    I haven't read much of their newer material together but in Children's Crusade, Billy's whole motivation was to prove that Wanda was his mom and Wanda referred to herself as Billy and Tommy's mom. So it certainly does seem like she considers herself their mom and at least Billy regards her that way too.
    Yeah, Children's Crusade did try really hard with the family labels there, not just with Wanda, but also with several mentions of Magneto being their grandpa and Pietro being their uncle. I think at least Heinberg was self-aware that it was a bit contrived to do that with people who literally never met each other at all in the first issue when he had Captain America saying to Billy that he had just met his actual parents (referring to Rebecca and Jeff) when he was theorizing he and Tommy could be Wanda's son, and then Billy replies ''I know that, I'm not crazy'', and he just meant more in the spiritual sense. But since Heinberg was wrapping up his story, I think he wanted to go all in with the family theme, since he didn't know if he would have the opportunity to develop it further. I think writers after him, though, had to do a better at portraying the family angle if they wanted us to buy them as an actual family. I mean, leaving Wanda aside for a minute, why the hell would I believe Vision is a father figure to them at all when this is the guy who literally erased his emotions about his old family and then tried to replace them with another one? It feels like a disservice to actual families and to the Kaplans, who on top on raising Billy, actually took Tommy (and Teddy!) in too when he had nowhere to go. They were parents to these kids more than Vision and Wanda ever were. I just wish writers were more mindful of that when writing these relationship dynamics.

  9. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Yeah, I'm aware... That's a problem that I had with Al Ewing's New Avengers and it's something I think should be addressed. They didn't have a mother/son relationship up until that point (and they still don't, really), so Billy calling her mom just came off as really weird and out of place. If I had my way, I would explain that maybe he did it because he was trying to be polite or sensitive to her feelings, like maybe he thought that's what she would want him to call her, not knowing that she also doesn't feel completely comfortable in that particular role, since she never actually raised him as a mother. I just want Marvel to treat this relationship with the depth and sense that it deserves, because having them not interact for long periods of time only for them to get like one random issue together and be treated like a family just feels lazy.
    I agree. I sort of wonder if this was a live-action scene with physical actors, if it would be played straight, or if the Billy actor would smirk as he says, 'mom' and the Wanda actor would roll her eyes, suggesting that it's more of a private joke than an actual statement of fact.

    And I totally agree that the Kaplans have been done a big disservice, being more or less shunted aside for 'family drama' with Wanda and longtime interaction with Vision (as Jonas). That said, given how comics like to murder off supporting characters like family for dramatic angst, it's probably for the best that we haven't seen or heard much of the Kaplans. They'd be outed as having been eated by fire demons or ganked by a squad of Shiar Death Commandos during Secret Crisis Invasion Gauntlet Realms or whatever.

    That all said, I did get a hoot out of Tommy's interactions with Pietro (who, I feel, has never had adequate connection with *his own* daughter, Luna, and yet somehow shines when forced into a elder mentor role with teens like Tommy or Finesse, over in Avengers Academy), and Magneto's 'grandpa' routine. (Which is no longer canon, but, whatevs.)
    Last edited by Sutekh; 06-07-2020 at 01:43 AM.

  10. #595
    Mighty Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Off-page development only works if the writers try to explain what happened off-page, but that doesn't happen here. We simply don't know how much Billy and Wanda keep in touch with each other. Something like a mention of how they meet every Saturday for a cup of tea, a magic lesson and/or a private conversation to get to know each other better. If that had been established, it would be a lot easier for me to accept that their relationship had evolved off-page, but between The Children's Crusade and New Avengers, the only moment I can think of that they shared was in Mark Waid's S.H.I.E.L.D. when Billy was shot in front of her and she seemed pretty nonchalant about it. Not motherly at all. Then we went from that straight to him calling her mom in New Avengers. That was four years ago, around the same time the Scarlet Witch book established that she was having a hard time connecting with Billy and Tommy, which implied their relationship was actually not THAT good. As you can see, there wasn't even consistency. Then they never interacted again and we haven't had any mention as to how their relationship was doing ever since. So yeah, I do think that writers just assigning a ''mom/son'' label on them without really explaining how they got there is kinda lazy. Readers shouldn't have to do the hard lifting for a narrative to make sense. That's a writer's job.
    To be fair it's not like the scarlet witch series is all that consistent to begin with. The Billy and Tommy who showed up in it looked like 12 year olds which bugged the shit out of me, and told me the writer hadn't done the proper research. Though I do understand your point. To me their relationship just feels like that of an adoptive child who still keep in contact with their other parents. It doesn't strike me as a disservice to the Kaplans that he calls her mom, he still addresses Rebecca as mom too. And volume 2 really emphasized how much Billy loves his parents, now the brothers they seem to be all but nonexistent at this point, that's the problem for me.
    Last edited by Journey; 06-07-2020 at 01:56 AM.

  11. #596
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Changing the subject a little, something I've been meaning to discuss... with everything that's going in the USA (and the world, really) right now, does anyone else wonder what that means for a black character like Eli and the way Marvel chooses to portray him in the future? I ask this because I've already brought up how I think Eli has sort of evolved past the ''Patriot'' identity, and with the current sociopolitical events, it feels like it could come off as tone deaf for Marvel to push a young, black hero as some sort of Captain America Jr. character dressed like the US flag when a whole new generation of black americans are taking stances that are deemed ''anti-patriot'' as a form of protest. And let's not forget that Eli is a character that has a very specific origin story that deals with how the system can be cruel and unfair to black families.

    I'm specially curious to know how he would be portrayed in other media such as the MCU, assuming they would use him (and honestly, I'm not sure if not using him is even an option now, because erasing the only black founding member of the team would NOT be a good look). Should/would they skip the whole Patriot thing altogether? Allan Heinberg originally planned for Eli to take on the title of ''Sentinel'', if I remember correctly. Could the MCU do something similar instead and make him look less of a ''US poster boy''?

  12. #597
    Astonishing Member Beetle's Avatar
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    That's an easy one, because even though this issue was published in 2008 it's just as relevant as ever




  13. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Changing the subject a little, something I've been meaning to discuss... with everything that's going in the USA (and the world, really) right now, does anyone else wonder what that means for a black character like Eli and the way Marvel chooses to portray him in the future? I ask this because I've already brought up how I think Eli has sort of evolved past the ''Patriot'' identity, and with the current sociopolitical events, it feels like it could come off as tone deaf for Marvel to push a young, black hero as some sort of Captain America Jr. character dressed like the US flag when a whole new generation of black americans are taking stances that are deemed ''anti-patriot'' as a form of protest. And let's not forget that Eli is a character that has a very specific origin story that deals with how the system can be cruel and unfair to black families.

    I'm specially curious to know how he would be portrayed in other media such as the MCU, assuming they would use him (and honestly, I'm not sure if not using him is even an option now, because erasing the only black founding member of the team would NOT be a good look). Should/would they skip the whole Patriot thing altogether? Allan Heinberg originally planned for Eli to take on the title of ''Sentinel'', if I remember correctly. Could the MCU do something similar instead and make him look less of a ''US poster boy''?
    Oof. I was thinking something shallow like, 'What if Eli got exposed to some MGH that gave him powers like Sam Guthrie/Cannonball (or movie version Negasonic), and he became a literal living 'Patriot missile?''

    And you got all heavy. (And reminded me A) how bad the optics of a black kid getting his powers from a street drug are, and B) how much I hate black characters (or women) getting hand-me-down powers from white characters (or men) and C) blah-blah, something appropriating mutant culture arglebargle made-up nonsense.)

    Part of me says it could be a big ol' controversy, to have Eli get involved in this sort of real life social wake-up call we're getting, and bring out all sorts of angry kooks. The bigger part of me says, 'good, screw 'em, this group has always had characters of color, gays, etc. and has *never* been for those creeps anyway.'

    It will offend the same type of people who got offended when Captain America punched Hitler, all those years ago, and I say, cool. They like being offended anyway. Keeps their blood moving. Plus, controversy sells books and gets free publicity. (And while it will get the usual 'I'll never buy Marvel again! Why so political?' cries, they'll be from bigots who never read as inclusive a team book as this anyway, and will go right back to appropriating Punisher's skull-symbol for themselves.)

  14. #599
    Extraordinary Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Perhaps, given the Falcon & Winter Soldier series on deck for Disney+, we can anticipate Eli's journey into hero status being inspired by SAM since he's going to be taking the shield/mantle.
    Additionally, rather than willingly taking MGH to super power himself, maybe he starts out non-powered. Maybe whatever circumstance he finds himself immersed in, whilst aiming to be a local hero, lands him in a tricky spot with nefarious goons which sadly lands him in a hospital, which leads to his grandfather (great grandfather?) giving him a blood transfusion.
    Last edited by Fokken; 06-08-2020 at 05:44 AM.

  15. #600
    Spectacular Member Storm17's Avatar
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    Apparently, in the Falcon & the Winter Soldier, Isaiah will make an appearance. So that could be a way they set up Eli and the YA.

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