Young Avengers Appreciation 2020

[hulkling]

Teddy is talking with the FF and the avengers in the ship so I dont think he will be portayed as evil at all. But he will remind them that he is the ruler of two powerful empires.

[Drops Of Venus]

They really better not have Teddy go full villain. We don't need that kind of character assassination.

And after his little exchange with Kl'rt in Incoming, I'm kind of hoping Teddy gets to call out Stark and Richards for what they did during Civil War...the whole 'getting him vivisected' thing as well as the torture for Billy, the drugging, and the whole illegal locking in the sanity-eating alternate dimension prison thing...

Yes, I'm all here for King Teddy throwing shade at everyone!

Speaking of Civil War shade, and that time Teddy got kidnapped and vivisected... it's funny to think that that happened because of Noh-Varr being brainwashed at the time. Noh will certainly cross paths with Teddy at some point during this event, and I'm really looking forward to how their interaction is going to be like. Bonus awkward point if Teddy finally manages to find Xavin and bring them to his side. ''Hey, Noh-Varr, this is Super-Skrull Xavin. You know, the one whose neck you broke that one time you kidnapped me, my boyfriend and my friends so we could be tortured by a madman.''

Yeah, I can see it now.

Klrt "We need a strong response, we can't look weak!"

Teddy "Your philosophy is what brought both the Skrull and the Kree to the brink of ruin over the last centuries, and left you brought so low you looked to *me* for leadership. Sit down, shut up and let me lead."

Yeah, this is the energy that I'm hoping for. Teddy will be a firm leader, but he won't resort to the same tactics that led to the self-destruction of both empires in the past.

Teddy is talking with the FF and the avengers in the ship so I dont think he will be portayed as evil at all. But he will remind them that he is the ruler of two powerful empires.

My take from the preview pages was that Teddy was having a peaceful conversation with the FF, but the Avengers ended up violently ''crashing the party'' and escalated the situation.

[Drops Of Venus]

So here's an interesting speculation, courtesy of Charles Murphy: the IMDB page for The Falcon And The Winter Soldier claims actor Olli Haaskivi will play Dr. Wilfred Nagel in the show. This is the name of the character who was responsible for the experiments that made Isaiah Bradley the first black Captain America in the comics. People were guessing if it was possible for F&TWS to introduce the Bradleys in any way, well... there's your possible connection.

[Ibara]

Pretty excited about the Disney+ shows incoming, especially WandaVision. The short preview confirmed the twins (as babies) as well. Hopefully we'll see some more solid teases/reveals for YA in the coming months/year.

[Drops Of Venus]

Our first (kind of) official look at Billy and Tommy in the MCU! I'm curious to see how the dynamic with the babies will be like. Like, the pacifiers going up in a very exaggerated way... is this just for a deliberately unrealistic comedic effect, or is there something actually supernatural about the babies? I would love if they replicated that weirdness surrounding them back from the 80s comics, when the babies would disappear and leave the babysitter crazy whenever Wanda wasn't around.

[Digifiend]

Of course, the babies disappeared because they weren't real...

[GenericUsername]

They initially were real. Them not being was a retcon. And one that didn't make sense. Since Doctor Strange had said the pregnancy was normal and she carried them to term and gave birth to them. Them suddenly disappearing didn't make sense at all.

Then they decided on Mephisto soul babies.

And if you think about, it's been sort of retconned back. Because the spiritual essences that Wiccan and Speed got came from Wanda and Vision's boys. Not Mephisto.

So likely Mephisto is a big fat liar. Just like how he lied to Master Pandemonium.

[Wiccan]

They initially were real. Them not being was a retcon. And one that didn't make sense. Since Doctor Strange had said the pregnancy was normal and she carried them to term and gave birth to them. Them suddenly disappearing didn't make sense at all.

Then they decided on Mephisto soul babies.

And if you think about, it's been sort of retconned back. Because the spiritual essences that Wiccan and Speed got came from Wanda and Vision's boys. Not Mephisto.

So likely Mephisto is a big fat liar. Just like how he lied to Master Pandemonium.

I think the implication is that Billy and Tommy's souls do come from Mephisto? But as in the shards that the babies had? Honestly Marvel just never really thought things through with them. Not their age, not the logistics of whether they were "real" or not and how exactly they resurrected, how they look alike even though they have different biological parents, whether they're mutants or not, nothing.

[GenericUsername]

I think the implication is that Billy and Tommy's souls do come from Mephisto? But as in the shards that the babies had? Honestly Marvel just never really thought things through with them. Not their age, not the logistics of whether they were "real" or not and how exactly they resurrected, how they look alike even though they have different biological parents, whether they're mutants or not, nothing.

If it'd be true that their souls come from Mephisto, then there'd be no link between them, Wanda and Vision. Because their sons' bodies no longer exist.

So it wouldn't really work.

[Wiccan]

If it'd be true that their souls come from Mephisto, then there'd be no link between them, Wanda and Vision. Because their sons' bodies no longer exist.

So it wouldn't really work.

I wouldn't say that. Wanda did "create" them after all. She got pregnant with the original twins, gave birth and everything. She also named them(and the names magically carried through and were given by their new parents as well), and they have essentially the same powers as her and Pietro, which in my headcanon is because Wanda subconciously made them that way. I think it could be interpreted as Mephisto just being the "source" for them.

[Sutekh]

I think of it as the soul 'energy' came from the free floating bits of Mephisto lying about, but once it was shaped into Tommy and Billy and spent some time being those little baby humans, it sort of 'changed flavor.' Now, regardless of the 'matter' that made up their souls came from, or what it was before, there's still a bit of 'them' left, which has moved on to 'flavor' the souls of the new Billy and Tommy (after, presumably, being rejected by Mephisto, who *did not WANT* any icky unbearable memories of being warm and content and loved, coddled and cared for, in a loving home, cluttering up the purity of his evil hateful self).

The only thing I'd want resolved is that the teens Billy Kaplan and Tommy Shepherd had some sort of 'hole' or 'weakness' in their souls that the fragments ended up filling in and making hole, perhaps after some sort of youthful accident where they almost died, or got snacked on by something that was attempting to devour their souls, or got traumatized by something and partially retreated, or whatever. It could be supernatural (the 'almost got soul devoured' thing), it could be utterly mundane (mental retreat after trauma), it could different for the two of them.

I would like their squiffy origin story better if these soul-remnants from Wanda's babies saved them and made them whole, not 'possessed' two otherwise healthy young men and utterly took over their lives, 'cause that's icky.

[Digifiend]

Mephisto's involvement would explain the impossible age of Wiccan and Speed. In Champions he allowed Miles Morales to redo the last few minutes, thus saving Ms. Marvel and Viv Vision from dying in battle against Zzzax. That proves that Mephisto can manipulate time. He sent Billy's and Tommy's souls back and put them into their mothers. Sounds plausible?

[Wiccan]

Mephisto's involvement would explain the impossible age of Wiccan and Speed. In Champions he allowed Miles Morales to redo the last few minutes, thus saving Ms. Marvel and Viv Vision from dying in battle against Zzzax. That proves that Mephisto can manipulate time. He sent Billy's and Tommy's souls back and put them into their mothers. Sounds plausible?

The idea that the souls went back in time seems to be what Robinson and Ewing were going with, so I guess that makes some sense. But I wouldn't think of Mephisto himself doing it. More like the souls being connected to Mephisto makes it so it can travel in time for a new ~host~ by itself.

[Drops Of Venus]

Oh boy, I love some discourse about the convoluted origins of Billy and Tommy. Here we go...

Of course, the babies disappeared because they weren't real...

The discussion over whether the babies were real or not is a long one, and a lot of writers don't seem to agree among themselves about what should be canon. For Wiccan and Speed's sake, I do think the idea that they WERE real is the best one. After all, if the babies were not real... then how do you even explain Billy and Tommy's origin story? How are they the reincarnation of two beings who never existed in the first place? If their whole origin is based on the idea that the babies' souls went into their bodies, then you can't possibly spin this as the original twins not being real. If they had souls, they were essentially real.

And I should note that Allan Heinberg seems to agree with this, btw. Not only because, duh, he created Wiccan and Speed, but also because he wrote this X-Men story that was a prequel to Avengers: The Children's Crusade that brought up this exact subject. Magneto and some other mutants were having a conversation about the boys, and someone brought up how it was impossible for them to be Wanda's children because they were not real. Magneto very clearly disagreed with that notion, saying that the kids had a soul, and not even Wanda would be able to just fake something like that. The Children's Crusade ends with Wanda confirming they were her children and thus proving that Magneto was right. So, as far as the Young Avengers canon goes, the original kids were real, otherwise everything Heinberg did with Billy and Tommy falls apart.

I wouldn't say that. Wanda did "create" them after all. She got pregnant with the original twins, gave birth and everything. She also named them(and the names magically carried through and were given by their new parents as well), and they have essentially the same powers as her and Pietro, which in my headcanon is because Wanda subconciously made them that way. I think it could be interpreted as Mephisto just being the "source" for them.

Agreed. Mephisto gave her the raw material to play with, but Wanda was basically the one who shaped the babies into what they were going to be. And her magic was so strong that she not only shaped who they were in that life, but also on their NEXT one. That is some next level witchcraft.

In the end, I think the Minimoffs are kind of like the love child of both Wanda and Mephisto. I know that sounds like a creepy thing to say, but it's not unfounded. I don't know if y'all remember Young Avengers Presents: Wiccan & Speed, but that was the one (and only) book that not only acknowledged the connection that Mephisto had to the twins, but also brought up the possibility that Mephisto was actually their original biological father. Billy begins the issue by specifically mentioning how he has nightmares in which he is a kid with Wanda, and then when she is gonna introduce his father, Mephisto appears. What exactly is buried within Billy's subconsciousness that makes his mind create this scenario in which Mephisto is his real dad? God, I hate Marvel for not following up on this goddamn plot point.

Mephisto's involvement would explain the impossible age of Wiccan and Speed. In Champions he allowed Miles Morales to redo the last few minutes, thus saving Ms. Marvel and Viv Vision from dying in battle against Zzzax. That proves that Mephisto can manipulate time. He sent Billy's and Tommy's souls back and put them into their mothers. Sounds plausible?

I think I mentioned this before, but my headcanon is that Kang was responsible for the twins' souls potentially travelling to the past, as a part of his own little plan which would culminate in the events of Heinberg's Young Avengers.

[GenericUsername]

I'd rather Mephisto not be involved at all. It's creepy, it erases Vision and he's overused and a known liar.

The ages of Wiccan and Speed aren't really anymore weird than other characters in comics. Since Wanda never gave birth to them, they can be any age. Wanda can be any age. And the timeframe between the original boys dying and their souls entering Wiccan and Speed can be any time frame. The "spell" Wanda cast could've made them look related.