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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I'd rather Mephisto not be involved at all. It's creepy, it erases Vision and he's overused and a known liar.
    Agreed on the Vision erasure thing. Tommy being a speedster, and not some sort of synthetic/human hybrid, taking after his 'spiritual father' would have been far neater, back in the day, and possibly erased the need for Jonas at all, in the book, since they would have already had a 'Vision' legacy.

    But, what is, is, and Vision's already got nothing to do with the twins. He's already been 'erased' from the jump.

    The ages of Wiccan and Speed aren't really anymore weird than other characters in comics. Since Wanda never gave birth to them, they can be any age. Wanda can be any age. And the timeframe between the original boys dying and their souls entering Wiccan and Speed can be any time frame. The "spell" Wanda cast could've made them look related.
    The only question is whether or not they were created whole cloth, as teenagers, which seems pretty extreme, not just creating whole living persons, but also forging all sorts of memories and past records of them having lived their imaginary past lives (birth records, doctors and dentists and teachers and rabbis and whatever sudddenly 'remembering' having 'always known them'), and inserting them into pre-existing families, all creepy like *or* whether two pre-existing teens had their entire lives stolen as they were replaced by these two spiritual children of Wanda's, and, even creepier, physically resculpted to look like what the grown up Billy and Tommy would have looked like, instead of their own appearance.

    Hence my preferring the notion that they somehow inhabited spiritually wounded or incomplete teens, in essence, saving them and making them whole and giving them (and their loved ones) a second chance at life, rather than usurping the lives of two healthy teens and possibly even evicting (or overwriting) the previous souls!

    It could be interesting to find out that pre-and-post soul-merger-whatever, Billy and Tommy are different enough from who they were before that it has caused some issues. Perhaps Tommy, in particular, got along pretty well with his family before the accident, but when he 'woke up' as this new (speedster) Tommy, he felt a bit distant from his birth family, as if they'd accepted that he wasn't waking up, or coming back, or recovering, and begun to move on, and hence his teenage troubles landing him in juvie, as he began acting out (and exploring his new powers, which would likely cause all sorts of teenage shenanigans in and of themselves...).

  2. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Agreed on the Vision erasure thing. Tommy being a speedster, and not some sort of synthetic/human hybrid, taking after his 'spiritual father' would have been far neater, back in the day, and possibly erased the need for Jonas at all, in the book, since they would have already had a 'Vision' legacy.

    But, what is, is, and Vision's already got nothing to do with the twins. He's already been 'erased' from the jump.



    The only question is whether or not they were created whole cloth, as teenagers, which seems pretty extreme, not just creating whole living persons, but also forging all sorts of memories and past records of them having lived their imaginary past lives (birth records, doctors and dentists and teachers and rabbis and whatever sudddenly 'remembering' having 'always known them'), and inserting them into pre-existing families, all creepy like *or* whether two pre-existing teens had their entire lives stolen as they were replaced by these two spiritual children of Wanda's, and, even creepier, physically resculpted to look like what the grown up Billy and Tommy would have looked like, instead of their own appearance.

    Hence my preferring the notion that they somehow inhabited spiritually wounded or incomplete teens, in essence, saving them and making them whole and giving them (and their loved ones) a second chance at life, rather than usurping the lives of two healthy teens and possibly even evicting (or overwriting) the previous souls!

    It could be interesting to find out that pre-and-post soul-merger-whatever, Billy and Tommy are different enough from who they were before that it has caused some issues. Perhaps Tommy, in particular, got along pretty well with his family before the accident, but when he 'woke up' as this new (speedster) Tommy, he felt a bit distant from his birth family, as if they'd accepted that he wasn't waking up, or coming back, or recovering, and begun to move on, and hence his teenage troubles landing him in juvie, as he began acting out (and exploring his new powers, which would likely cause all sorts of teenage shenanigans in and of themselves...).
    Well the boys were born from other parents. So their physical selves couldn't have manifested as teens, I'd think. I think what happened is Wanda cast a spell to bring back her boys and the spell backfired. Putting the spiritual essences in two other boys. I think it'd be creepy if it were intended, but not much has been shown about it. We just know Wanda wanted her sons back, had the power to do it, and now two boys that look a like that feel they have some link to her are around.

    I think in the movies/tv, it could be quite different. They might have them be her's somehow.
    Was Curlytop

  3. #228
    Amazing Member Ibara's Avatar
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    I always thought the idea of some magics, souls, demons, etc. as existing outside of time. Meaning wherever the souls were drawn from and later "reborn" don't have to follow a linear and proportionate time scale. The souls of Wanda's children were lost at Point A, they returned to another plane - no longer being compatible from where they were drawn, they attempted to find their way back to Wanda and were reborn in two different families at a Point B. Point B just happens to be before Point A. So in a way, Billy and Tommy were always Billy and Tommy (no erasure of a previous host's soul).

  4. #229
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    To me, it's just reality warping.

    I imagine it's pretty much exactly like how Miles Morales was inserted into 616 post-Secret Wars. He wasn't a part of the universe. And then he was, and always had been.

    Involving Mephisto or Kang or time-travel or whatever is just unnecessary over-complication.

  5. #230

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    It wasn't reality warping when she created the boys. That was a magic spell that used the energies of witches and the soul shards of Mephisto. Now their souls being brought back into Wiccan and Speed was likely reality warping, because it was likely at the same time that she was wielding the life force. So it's just not that simple as all being reality warping. Wanda wields a combination of things. Traditional magic, to control the chaos magic, that allows her to tap into energies and sometimes reality warp.
    Was Curlytop

  6. #231
    Incredible Member Journey's Avatar
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    I thought the general consensus was Tommy and Billy's souls went back in time and hijacked two babies kicking out their souls to wherever the fuck, and the magic that was used to get them there warped their looks/DNA so their twins in every sense.

    You know considering the whole thing is obscure to begin with who's to say this was even Wanda's doing, they could retcon it say it was Mephisto, Chiton, or even Demiurge Billy forcing himself into existence if they wanted to. Their are many routes to explore if they ever bother to address that elephant.
    Last edited by Journey; 02-03-2020 at 06:07 PM.

  7. #232
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I'd rather Mephisto not be involved at all. It's creepy, it erases Vision and he's overused and a known liar.

    The ages of Wiccan and Speed aren't really anymore weird than other characters in comics. Since Wanda never gave birth to them, they can be any age. Wanda can be any age. And the timeframe between the original boys dying and their souls entering Wiccan and Speed can be any time frame. The "spell" Wanda cast could've made them look related.
    Well, Vision was never a part of the children's conception in the first place. We were always told that it was some kind of miracle conception made by Wanda's powers, and then later came the revelation that she had a little inadvertent help from Mephisto. That doesn't change Viz's role as the actual father who raised the babies; I'm just pointing out a logical way to explain how the children were biologically/magically formed, and Mephisto has been stated to be a part of it, which could, technically, make him the biological/spiritual father of the twins. I'm not expecting Billy and Tommy to call him daddy or anything like that, but I think it makes for a very interesting plot point. What would you do if you found out your very soul is demonic in essence? That could be a great story.

    And yeah, it's true that aging in the Marvel Universe is weird in general, but that doesn't mean Marvel shouldn't try to make sense of some things sometimes. I would appreciate a more coherent canon that doesn't lead to so many doubts over the history of the characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    To me, it's just reality warping.

    I imagine it's pretty much exactly like how Miles Morales was inserted into 616 post-Secret Wars. He wasn't a part of the universe. And then he was, and always had been.

    Involving Mephisto or Kang or time-travel or whatever is just unnecessary over-complication.
    Mephisto is already involved, though. He's already part of their origin story. He's the reason why the original children were created and then later died, which is a pretty big deal, since that's what gave us Wiccan and Speed. I don't think you can not involve him unless you're planning on retconning the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    I thought the general consensus was Tommy and Billy's souls went back in time and hijacked two babies kicking out their souls to wherever the fuck, and the magic that was used to get them there warped their looks/DNA so their twins in every sense.

    You know considering the whole thing is obscure to begin with who's to say this was even Wanda's doing, they could retcon it say it was Mephisto, Chiton, or even Demiurge Billy forcing himself into existence if they wanted to. Their are many routes to explore if they ever bother to address that elephant.
    Well, as you can see... there is no general consensus. And probably there won't be as long as Marvel doesn't come up with a definitive origin story for them. I wish they would do with the YA something similar to what they did to the Avengers a few years ago with the ''Avengers Origins'' miniseries. Each issue would focus on a different Young Avenger and their background. I know we technically got something similar in the Young Avengers Special issue during the first volume of Heinberg's run, but those were just short stories explaining the basics, while a series of one-shots could flesh out their origins more. Like Young Avengers Presents, but with flashbacks instead.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 02-04-2020 at 02:24 AM.

  8. #233
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Well, the original spell required for Vision to be there behind Wanda on a weird sex analogy. But with all the retcons Idk if that still counts as being what really brought them to the world.

  9. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Well, the original spell required for Vision to be there behind Wanda on a weird sex analogy. But with all the retcons Idk if that still counts as being what really brought them to the world.
    Vision's inner workings worked the same as a normal man but in a synthetic body, so not sure why they just didn't stick with that for the conception. But he's still considered the father, even now. So it hasn't be retconned.
    Was Curlytop

  10. #235
    Astonishing Member Beetle's Avatar
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    I was under the impression that it was Vision and Wanda's love for each other and their shared desire for children which shaped the spell to create the boys. Wanda couldn't do it without him.

    Honestly I'm fine with the twins just having 3 parents. Mephisto's soul fragments provided a blank canvas, Wanda and Vision filled those vessels with their dreams of a family. And they created two people, transformed them into something new, something bigger than any of them

  11. #236
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Well, the original spell required for Vision to be there behind Wanda on a weird sex analogy. But with all the retcons Idk if that still counts as being what really brought them to the world.
    Sure, but like you said, I think it was mostly an analogy, and not like... them trying to say that Vision was a literal part of the process. I think it's possible that what happened was more of a psychological effect on her magic; kind of like when we were told that Billy is more effective in healing people when he actually cares about the people he's trying to heal. In Wanda's case, it's possible that Vision being around was important to motivate her desire to will children into existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Vision's inner workings worked the same as a normal man but in a synthetic body, so not sure why they just didn't stick with that for the conception. But he's still considered the father, even now. So it hasn't be retconned.
    I think going with magic was probably easier, because even though Vision has organs, they're still not organic. His reproductive system is not organic. I don't know if he can produce any sperm, but even if he could, it would still not be organic. He doesn't have any genes to pass on. How would that work? The way I could see him physically taking part in the creation of the kids was if they were conceived as cyborgs instead, with parts of them based on his own patterns, similar to how he created Viv and Vin. But we have no evidence that happened with William and Thomas. As far as we know, they were 100% organic.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 02-04-2020 at 01:39 AM.

  12. #237

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    Comics are part science fiction, so anything is possible. Since it's a world of the impossible being possible. Applying real life biology to stories where people are exposed to things that should cause illness, but instead cause superpowers is kind of faulty.
    Was Curlytop

  13. #238
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    Re-reading Incoming! to see if there's anything i didnt catch the first time. I noticed a pretty nice character consistency. When Teddy describes someone as crying he uses the terms shatter and break as when he went off to figure out if he was real in YA Vol 2. Not a big thing, but a nice little character consistency.


    why-dont-you-just-rip-my-heart-out-gillen.jpgIncoming-1-spoilers-Empyre-4.jpg

  14. #239
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    Just a random though. Am I the only one who would love Billy being the same Demiurge that created Gaea and the Grandfather of thor ? Just imagen the kind of relationship between them knowing that a young mortal man one day will be the grandfather of the king of Asgard. And that would add Thor to the Pym family .

  15. #240
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Comics are part science fiction, so anything is possible. Since it's a world of the impossible being possible. Applying real life biology to stories where people are exposed to things that should cause illness, but instead cause superpowers is kind of faulty.
    I think suspension of disbelief has its own limits too. Saying that Vision can have biological kids would require an essential change to who he is as a character, 'cause even in the Marvel Universe, synthetic androids are not considered biological beings (unless they're cyborgs), and every time each one of them has had a child, it was not in any biological way. So even though Marvel could technically defy reality in this specific case, they decided not to, 'cause those are the rules of their universe. It's quite selective, yes, but that's fiction for you. Creators get to decide what makes sense and what doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    Just a random though. Am I the only one who would love Billy being the same Demiurge that created Gaea and the Grandfather of thor ? Just imagen the kind of relationship between them knowing that a young mortal man one day will be the grandfather of the king of Asgard. And that would add Thor to the Pym family .
    It would also add some irony to him being inspired by Thor and calling himself Asgardian back when he started his superhero career. I would be ok with that being canon, but I think it would require some very good writing to explain how Billy's Demiurge connects to the OG Demiurge. I don't think Gillen intended both Demiurges to be the same, but since he didn't really explain much about about it and well, no one else ever since bothered to explain exactly just what is the origin story of the Demiurge, I think future writers will probably have some creative liberty to craft their own mythology.

    I really want Al Ewing to go deep in the whole Demiurge thing. He planted the seeds for the King Of Space thing and it has paid off on Empyre, so maybe the other plot point from New Avengers (Billy as the Demiurge, etc) will also be explored in another story. Or if Gillen were to write Billy again, I would appreciate if he followed up on his YA run.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 02-04-2020 at 10:00 PM.

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