Young Avengers Appreciation 2020

[Digifiend]

Perhaps, given the Falcon & Winter Soldier series on deck for Disney+, we can anticipate Eli's journey into hero status being inspired by SAM since he's going to be taking the shield/mantle.
Additionally, rather than willingly taking MGH to super power himself, maybe he starts out non-powered. Maybe whatever circumstance he finds himself immersed in, whilst aiming to be a local hero, lands him in a tricky spot with nefarious goons which sadly lands him in a hospital, which leads to his grandfather (great grandfather?) giving him a blood transfusion.

Or he could just inherit his powers naturally - the reason his granddad didn't fight as a superhero is because the government didn't approve of black heroes (as happened to Blue Marvel in the comics), though they'd need some other excuse for his father, who would be after Goliath's (from Ant-Man and the Wasp) time.

[nandes]

But aren't most MCU movies (except like, Black Panther and that's it) patriotic or militaristic in some way? Js I don't think the public of these movies would necessarily be bothered by these factors

[Drops Of Venus]

That's an easy one, because even though this issue was published in 2008 it's just as relevant as ever

I mean, yeah, this is all nice and pretty in theory... but again, when the real world looks like the way it does right now, perspectives change. Like it or not, the idea of being ''patriotic'' has increasingly become a dog-whistle for white nationalists and the such who undermine movements like Black Lives Matter for ''not being patriotic''. Look at how some people were truly offended at the thought that someone would kneel during the national anthem, or not want to say the Pledge Of Allegiance. I'm not saying every patriotic person is a white nationalist, of course, I'm just saying that if you're telling the story of a black, rebel, idealistic young hero who's inclined to question authority and the system in the year of 2020, what are the odds that they would choose to ''look'' like the very system/authority figure they fight against? Image has real power, IMO.

And let us not forget that even Steve Rogers refused to be a part of that image once. That was the whole point of him becoming Nomad; he was so disappointed and disgusted with his own country that he decided to rebrand himself. Of course that would never stick because it's rare for Marvel Comics to let important characters change too much, but that's besides the point. For a smaller character like Eli who has made much less of an impact compared to Steve Rogers, I don't think it's too late for a makeover.

Oof. I was thinking something shallow like, 'What if Eli got exposed to some MGH that gave him powers like Sam Guthrie/Cannonball (or movie version Negasonic), and he became a literal living 'Patriot missile?''

And you got all heavy. (And reminded me A) how bad the optics of a black kid getting his powers from a street drug are, and B) how much I hate black characters (or women) getting hand-me-down powers from white characters (or men) and C) blah-blah, something appropriating mutant culture arglebargle made-up nonsense.)

Part of me says it could be a big ol' controversy, to have Eli get involved in this sort of real life social wake-up call we're getting, and bring out all sorts of angry kooks. The bigger part of me says, 'good, screw 'em, this group has always had characters of color, gays, etc. and has *never* been for those creeps anyway.'

It will offend the same type of people who got offended when Captain America punched Hitler, all those years ago, and I say, cool. They like being offended anyway. Keeps their blood moving. Plus, controversy sells books and gets free publicity. (And while it will get the usual 'I'll never buy Marvel again! Why so political?' cries, they'll be from bigots who never read as inclusive a team book as this anyway, and will go right back to appropriating Punisher's skull-symbol for themselves.)

I wasn't even gonna bring up the whole drug storyline thing, but yeah... Even back in 2005/2006, some people had an issue with the only black member of the team being the ''drug-addict'' one, and I can see them just sort of skipping all of that in the MCU. Maybe they'll say he really got his powers from his grandfather from the beginning, either through blood transfusion or by genetic inheritance.

And yes, I'm 100% sure Eli being a blacktivist would definitely make some people get their panties in a twist, but I think it's a representation worth having. Honestly, I can't think of a better way to modernize him. I could totally see him being the BLM type of guy before joining the Young Avengers in the MCU, 'cause that's his way of fighting injustice and what happened to his grandfather. Who knows if Disney would have the guts to portray a hero with that kind of backstory, though...

But aren't most MCU movies (except like, Black Panther and that's it) patriotic or militaristic in some way? Js I don't think the public of these movies would necessarily be bothered by these factors

Oh yeah, that's a whole can of worms by itself and something that's a part of a larger conversation about how entertainment feeds its audience with military/police representation, but you know, just because you've been using a certain formula for a long time, it doesn't mean you can't think outside of the box every now and then. Just because the audience has grown accustomed to a certain narrative, it doesn't meant the storytellers can't make them question it or show it through a different perspective. I think it would be good for Marvel Studios to step outside of their comfort zone for a bit.

[Beetle]

I mean, yeah, this is all nice and pretty in theory... but again, when the real world looks like the way it does right now, perspectives change. Like it or not, the idea of being ''patriotic'' has increasingly become a dog-whistle for white nationalists and the such who undermine movements like Black Lives Matter for ''not being patriotic''. Look at how some people were truly offended at the thought that someone would kneel during the national anthem, or not want to say the Pledge Of Allegiance. I'm not saying every patriotic person is a white nationalist, of course, I'm just saying that if you're telling the story of a black, rebel, idealistic young hero who's inclined to question authority and the system in the year of 2020, what are the odds that they would choose to ''look'' like the very system/authority figure they fight against? Image has real power, IMO.

And let us not forget that even Steve Rogers refused to be a part of that image once. That was the whole point of him becoming Nomad; he was so disappointed and disgusted with his own country that he decided to rebrand himself. Of course that would never stick because it's rare for Marvel Comics to let important characters change too much, but that's besides the point. For a smaller character like Eli who has made much less of an impact compared to Steve Rogers, I don't think it's too late for a makeover.

So should America Chavez change her name? Her upcoming mini has the not so subtle subtitle/tagline "Made in the USA". Because that seems like more of a dog whistle than Eli calling himself Patriot.

Dressing himself up in the red, white and blue has never been about blindly supporting the government for Eli. It's been about fighting for acknowledgment for his grandfather, it's been about fighting against injustices and helping those who can't rely on the status quo to protect them.
A black kid wearing the flag, while publicly telling the world that things need to change is a powerful image. Remember that viral photo of the Ferguson protester Edward Crawford (RIP) in a flag shirt throwing a tear gas cannister back at the cops?

Just because they are patriot themed doesn't mean that they are there to uphold the current system in place. The modern depiction of Captain America in the MCU was never about that, he was very much about attacking the status quo. MCU Steve Rogers was fighting, undermining and rebelling against injustices from the government at every opportunity.

The people protesting right now are fighting and making their voices heard because they want systemic change. They are holding the country accountable because they want to make things better. As far as I'm concerned they are patriots.

Now Nick Fury Jr. and his role as a government toady and superspy/cop, that might need to change.

[Raye]

I already posted this in the Loki thread, but sharing here as well:

Kieron Gillen is auctioning off a Young Avengers cover to benefit BLM:



https://twitter.com/kierongillen/sta...72707778744320

It's pretty pricey at this point but still worth sharing

eta - my 2 cents on the whole Patriot thing - don't let the bigots win that. If MAGA types use patriotic imagery and language for themselves, you use it right back at them while making it clear that you do not support their views, make it difficult to claim being a 'patriot' is a uniquely right wing thing, don't let them take it without a fight.

I deal with this a lot as a metal fan, specifically folk-metal. Most of the bands and fans are pretty chill and accepting of everyone. People who listen to Heilung or Eluveitie also listen to The Hu, and vice versa, it's all about sharing your culture with the world, and learning about other cultures, and that's not a bad thing. The white fans like seeing the Mongolians and other non-European bands rock out (admittedly, there are more white bands, it's just more popular there, but it's spreading, there are Middle Eastern, Chinese, South American, Native American/First Nations etc. and apparently Botswana in particular, for some reason, has a very strong scene, but so far nothing very folky that I've seen), and I've seen plenty of people in comments saying they are non-white or non-European and saying they like the European bands stuff. But the European acts, particularly those of more Scandinavian flavours, have attracted a very vocal minority of white supremacist fans, in search of 'white' music. Are the bands just supposed to close up shop because some people got the wrong idea and tried to appropriate it? No, they continue, while also trying to make it clear where they stand, and let the racists know they're not welcome as fans, you don't let the white supremacists appropriate that. (as clear as you can be, when you mostly sing in Gaulish or Old Norse, anyway)

[Drops Of Venus]

So should America Chavez change her name? Her upcoming mini has the not so subtle subtitle/tagline "Made in the USA". Because that seems like more of a dog whistle than Eli calling himself Patriot.

Dressing himself up in the red, white and blue has never been about blindly supporting the government for Eli. It's been about fighting for acknowledgment for his grandfather, it's been about fighting against injustices and helping those who can't rely on the status quo to protect them.
A black kid wearing the flag, while publicly telling the world that things need to change is a powerful image. Remember that viral photo of the Ferguson protester Edward Crawford (RIP) in a flag shirt throwing a tear gas cannister back at the cops?

Just because they are patriot themed doesn't mean that they are there to uphold the current system in place. The modern depiction of Captain America in the MCU was never about that, he was very much about attacking the status quo. MCU Steve Rogers was fighting, undermining and rebelling against injustices from the government at every opportunity.

The people protesting right now are fighting and making their voices heard because they want systemic change. They are holding the country accountable because they want to make things better. As far as I'm concerned they are patriots.

Now Nick Fury Jr. and his role as a government toady and superspy/cop, that might need to change.

I don't think America and Eli are comparable as characters. She has a whole fantastical background that distances herself from the kind of reality in which Eli was conceived. The whole story about the Bradley family was based on a real life event that affected the african-american community in the USA. So I think Eli, as a character, has a bigger responsibility to represent the african-american community. And she doesn't need to change her name because ''America'', to latin@ people, doesn't automatically translate to ''USA''. Most of us latin@s learn while growing up that America is a continent, not a country. And as we know, MAC was raised on several different latin@ countries in the american continent, so why not let ''America'' have a broader meaning to her? I'm all for her getting to dress with the colors/stripes/symbols of other countries, too. At the end of the day, her ''patriotic shtick'' always felt more like a simple fashion statement anyway, while for Eli it meant something more grounded and rooted in real life politics. As for her mini, I don't like that subtitle either and would be ok with them changing it, tbh.

As for the rest of your points, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said. I see where you're coming from. I just think that other people being patriotic in a certain way doesn't mean Eli should be doing that too. His grandfather wore the colors, Sam Wilson wore the colors... how did that work out for them? You see the pattern here of black men trying to uphold a certain legacy, only to be treated like crap? My point here is... at which point does a black person just get fed up with the old ways and think ''you know what? **** that.'' At which point does a black person decide that they're tired of ''changing things from the inside'', and that they just rather burn everything from the outside? That's the energy I'm seeing from so many young black people who refuse to accept that they have to love a flag or a symbol because that is meaningless to them next to black lives. One is material and disposable, the other isn't. All I'm saying is... I think Eli could be that kind of hero, someone who is more radical and unafraid to make people uncomfortable. While he could do that to some extent as Patriot, I don't think Marvel would be willing to go all in with a ''red white and blue'' type of character, because the idea of being Captain America's legacy would always hang over him. Like when Kate asked Eli, in the early Young Avengers days, why he couldn't be more like Steve... remember that? She even said that ''he would probably hear that a lot''. These days, ''be more like the white guy'' is not an advice I would give to any black person. I think the black community has earned the right to deal with things in a different way, because the old ways clearly have let them down.

[Frontier]

I don't think America and Eli are comparable as characters. She has a whole fantastical background that distances herself from the kind of reality in which Eli was conceived. The whole story about the Bradley family was based on a real life event that affected the african-american community in the USA. So I think Eli, as a character, has a bigger responsibility to represent the african-american community. And she doesn't need to change her name because ''America'', to latin@ people, doesn't automatically translate to ''USA''. Most of us latin@s learn while growing up that America is a continent, not a country. And as we know, MAC was raised on several different latin@ countries in the american continent, so why not let ''America'' have a broader meaning to her? I'm all for her getting to dress with the colors/stripes/symbols of other countries, too. At the end of the day, her ''patriotic shtick'' always felt more like a simple fashion statement anyway, while for Eli it meant something more grounded and rooted in real life politics. As for her mini, I don't like that subtitle either and would be ok with them changing it, tbh.

As for the rest of your points, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said. I see where you're coming from. I just think that other people being patriotic in a certain way doesn't mean Eli should be doing that too. His grandfather wore the colors, Sam Wilson wore the colors... how did that work out for them? You see the pattern here of black men trying to uphold a certain legacy, only to be treated like crap? My point here is... at which point does a black person just get fed up with the old ways and think ''you know what? **** that.'' At which point does a black person decide that they're tired of ''changing things from the inside'', and that they just rather burn everything from the outside? That's the energy I'm seeing from so many young black people who refuse to accept that they have to love a flag or a symbol because that is meaningless to them next to black lives. One is material and disposable, the other isn't. All I'm saying is... I think Eli could be that kind of hero, someone who is more radical and unafraid to make people uncomfortable. While he could do that to some extent as Patriot, I don't think Marvel would be willing to go all in with a ''red white and blue'' type of character, because the idea of being Captain America's legacy would always hang over him. Like when Kate asked Eli, in the early Young Avengers days, why he couldn't be more like Steve... remember that? She even said that ''he would probably hear that a lot''. These days, ''be more like the white guy'' is not an advice I would give to any black person. I think the black community has earned the right to deal with things in a different way, because the old ways clearly have let them down.

It would be kind of interesting to see, retroactively, what Eli thought about Sam being Cap.

[Sutekh]

People who listen to Heilung or Eluveitie also listen to The Hu, and vice versa,

Totally off-topic, but The Hu is amazing. I'm loving that other cultures' music is crossing over into 'our' domain, and getting recognition and being synthesized into something new to all of us. (Even if some of it is, shudder, K-pop.)

[Drops Of Venus]

It would be kind of interesting to see, retroactively, what Eli thought about Sam being Cap.

I would love that. I can't help but think that Nick Spencer probably wanted to use Eli during his Cap run, but due to [insert unclear legal circumstances here] he couldn't, so he created a new Patriot instead. I'm not sure if he's interested in returning to that world at all, but I would really like to read his take on the Bradley family one day. Ta-Nehisi Coates too, since he planned on using Eli's uncle for The Crew but couldn't.

[Frontier]

I would love that. I can't help but think that Nick Spencer probably wanted to use Eli during his Cap run, but due to [insert unclear legal circumstances here] he couldn't, so he created a new Patriot instead. I'm not sure if he's interested in returning to that world at all, but I would really like to read his take on the Bradley family one day. Ta-Nehisi Coates too, since he planned on using Eli's uncle for The Crew but couldn't.

Man, Rayshaun. I kind of feel bad for the kid in some ways...

[Digifiend]

Yeah, now that Eli's usable again, he seems to have been ditched. Marvel Rising looks like it's done and when Champions relaunched with Outlawed in March, Rayshaun was one of three of Zub's team members to not appear. The other two, Dust and Brawn, have excuses (Dawn of X and Agents of Atlas) but Rayshaun has no such reason for leaving the team, and they didn't even show him quitting due to Kamala's Law (as will probably happen with a few other members in Champions #1), he was just gone without explanation.

[Drops Of Venus]

I guess not wanting to undermine Rayshaun is also a pretty good reason for Eli to get a new codename. If Marvel really tries to push him as Patriot again, I find it hard to see Rayshaun being relevant again. And yeah, I know there have been successful cases of shared codenames like Spider-Man and Hawkeye, but I think the main difference here is that Spider-Man and Hawkeye are objectively more iconic/relevant names compared to Patriot, which makes it easier for two characters to share that spotlight. That's not really something you can say about Patriot, and the fact that we went years without a single active Patriot in comics and that wasn't a big deal is pretty much indicative of that. Rebrands are always risky, BUT I think Eli has the privilege of having some relevant connections to the MU and already established fanbase over the years from his Young Avengers days on his side, which could help him stay relevant. Rayshaun probably needs the name more right now.

[dkrook]

So should America Chavez change her name? Her upcoming mini has the not so subtle subtitle/tagline "Made in the USA". Because that seems like more of a dog whistle than Eli calling himself Patriot.

Dressing himself up in the red, white and blue has never been about blindly supporting the government for Eli. It's been about fighting for acknowledgment for his grandfather, it's been about fighting against injustices and helping those who can't rely on the status quo to protect them.
A black kid wearing the flag, while publicly telling the world that things need to change is a powerful image. Remember that viral photo of the Ferguson protester Edward Crawford (RIP) in a flag shirt throwing a tear gas cannister back at the cops?

Just because they are patriot themed doesn't mean that they are there to uphold the current system in place. The modern depiction of Captain America in the MCU was never about that, he was very much about attacking the status quo. MCU Steve Rogers was fighting, undermining and rebelling against injustices from the government at every opportunity.

The people protesting right now are fighting and making their voices heard because they want systemic change. They are holding the country accountable because they want to make things better. As far as I'm concerned they are patriots.

Now Nick Fury Jr. and his role as a government toady and superspy/cop, that might need to change.

I cosign to the point I think that you're making about Eli maybe he wants to make a statement and pivot the narrative back towards what it means to be a true patriot African American men and women are also have equal ownership, and represent this land. Casting down the slow creep of white nationalist that want to solely be America.

[Noek]

Hey for Tommy and Billy in the MCU how would people feel about 1 actor playing both characters?

[dkrook]

I already posted this in the Loki thread, but sharing here as well:

Kieron Gillen is auctioning off a Young Avengers cover to benefit BLM:



https://twitter.com/kierongillen/sta...72707778744320

It's pretty pricey at this point but still worth sharing

eta - my 2 cents on the whole Patriot thing - don't let the bigots win that. If MAGA types use patriotic imagery and language for themselves, you use it right back at them while making it clear that you do not support their views, make it difficult to claim being a 'patriot' is a uniquely right wing thing, don't let them take it without a fight.

I deal with this a lot as a metal fan, specifically folk-metal. Most of the bands and fans are pretty chill and accepting of everyone. People who listen to Heilung or Eluveitie also listen to The Hu, and vice versa, it's all about sharing your culture with the world, and learning about other cultures, and that's not a bad thing. The white fans like seeing the Mongolians and other non-European bands rock out (admittedly, there are more white bands, it's just more popular there, but it's spreading, there are Middle Eastern, Chinese, South American, Native American/First Nations etc. and apparently Botswana in particular, for some reason, has a very strong scene, but so far nothing very folky that I've seen), and I've seen plenty of people in comments saying they are non-white or non-European and saying they like the European bands stuff. But the European acts, particularly those of more Scandinavian flavours, have attracted a very vocal minority of white supremacist fans, in search of 'white' music. Are the bands just supposed to close up shop because some people got the wrong idea and tried to appropriate it? No, they continue, while also trying to make it clear where they stand, and let the racists know they're not welcome as fans, you don't let the white supremacists appropriate that. (as clear as you can be, when you mostly sing in Gaulish or Old Norse, anyway)

Lol, okay I definitely applaud the move. I was just wondering wouldn't have been cool to do some of the black character too?? Just saying since it is BLM.