Young Avengers Appreciation 2020

[Journey]

So I saw some girl bitching on Tumblr about Billy's Demiurge status and how it erases his Judaism or whatever and I was wondering is Billy's Demiurge meant to be the same one who created the elder gods like Chthon and such or is it a separate divine entity? Was this ever commented on?

[Beetle]

As far as I know Gillen intended for him to become a new Demiurge, who uses that name for it's symbolic power. Not that he would go back in time and rebirth the cosmos or whatever.
He's supposed to create new universes and rewrite the rules of magic, but in the future.

But yeah I've seen that argument before and I can understand it.
Gillen was very clear that he intended for Billy's iconography to become based on stars, specifically the pentagram, which comes up multiple times in the run

They could have had his Judaism have some influence on his grand destiny, they could have used the Star of David instead.

[Digifiend]

I just looked up Mar-Vell's Fandom page and on the Power section, you can see his powers were enhanced four different times, and only one of those times was because of the Nega-Bands. He was pretty damn powerful even without them. It makes sense his kids would inherit a bunch of stuff, although in Teddy's case, we would probably need a retcon saying he was enhanced before the Kree/Skrull War. Plus, we don't know exactly what the mixing of Kree with Skrull genes can cause. Teddy could, for all we know, be a ''mutant'' of his kind just as much as Thanos is a mutant for the Eternals.

Teddy's already been retconned. When he was sent to Earth, time travel was involved - he was born during the war.

[Journey]

As far as I know Gillen intended for him to become a new Demiurge, who uses that name for it's symbolic power. Not that he would go back in time and rebirth the cosmos or whatever.
He's supposed to create new universes and rewrite the rules of magic, but in the future.

But yeah I've seen that argument before and I can understand it.
Gillen was very clear that he intended for Billy's iconography to become based on stars, specifically the pentagram, which comes up multiple times in the run

They could have had his Judaism have some influence on his grand destiny, they could have used the Star of David instead.

Thank you I agree star of David would have been more appeasing.

[Drops Of Venus]

So I saw some girl bitching on Tumblr about Billy's Demiurge status and how it erases his Judaism or whatever and I was wondering is Billy's Demiurge meant to be the same one who created the elder gods like Chthon and such or is it a separate divine entity? Was this ever commented on?

Gillen said, off-book, that Billy's Demiurge was intended to be a different entity, but since he never actually explained that in the book, I'm not sure if everybody had that same interpretation or understanding. Billy's profile description on the recap pages of Strikeforce saying he's destined to be the life-force of all universe seems to imply there is a connection to the OG Demiurge, for instance. I guess it's really up to future writers to decide, if they bring up the Demiurge stuff again.

As for the Tumblr person, I think I know who you're talking about. Is it the person who pretty much hates everything with the Young Avengers that wasn't written by Heinberg and won't shut up about it? LOL. I just find it funny because, let's be real, it's not like Allan gave us some great jewish representation either. Billy being jewish came up like twice during his run, and it was never relevant to the story at all. Plus, his whole origin and superhero shtick were based on pagan concepts. I mean, the reincarnation of the magic demon child of the Scarlet Witch who would go on to take on the very non-orthodox identities of Asgardian and Wiccan. And his jewish parents never had a problem with ANY of that. If you're looking for a squeaky-clean jewish representation, Billy was never it. That doesn't mean his jewishness should be erased, but it doesn't mean people should get offended by anything unorthodox in his story, because that's pretty much the core of the character ever since his creation.

As far as I know Gillen intended for him to become a new Demiurge, who uses that name for it's symbolic power. Not that he would go back in time and rebirth the cosmos or whatever.
He's supposed to create new universes and rewrite the rules of magic, but in the future.

But yeah I've seen that argument before and I can understand it.
Gillen was very clear that he intended for Billy's iconography to become based on stars, specifically the pentagram, which comes up multiple times in the run

They could have had his Judaism have some influence on his grand destiny, they could have used the Star of David instead.

I think the pentagram is just a basic aesthetic choice based on its presence within witchcraft culture. And since Billy IS a wizard, I don't think it's a big deal for the reasons I've stated above. Plus, I guess it's possible he wanted Billy's stars during his run to have five points because that is also how America's stars looked like. It might've been a hint that they were connected all along, before the big reveal of her origins in the final issues.

That being said, I agree that Billy could've used the six-pointed star. I mean, he still can. I don't think there's anything stopping that. As a character who is both a wizard and jewish, he could do both. It could even lead to some interesting stories about how he balances both sides of himself.

Teddy's already been retconned. When he was sent to Earth, time travel was involved - he was born during the war.

I meant Mar-Vell would need a retcon, because some of his enhancements happened AFTER the Kree/Skrull War, which means that Teddy wouldn't have inherited some of his powers if he was conceived before that.

[Journey]

Gillen said, off-book, that Billy's Demiurge was intended to be a different entity, but since he never actually explained that in the book, I'm not sure if everybody had that same interpretation or understanding. Billy's profile description on the recap pages of Strikeforce saying he's destined to be the life-force of all universe seems to imply there is a connection to the OG Demiurge, for instance. I guess it's really up to future writers to decide, if they bring up the Demiurge stuff again.

As for the Tumblr person, I think I know who you're talking about. Is it the person who pretty much hates everything with the Young Avengers that wasn't written by Heinberg and won't shut up about it? LOL. I just find it funny because, let's be real, it's not like Allan gave us some great jewish representation either. Billy being jewish came up like twice during his run, and it was never relevant to the story at all. Plus, his whole origin and superhero shtick were based on pagan concepts. I mean, the reincarnation of the magic demon child of the Scarlet Witch who would go on to take on the very non-orthodox identities of Asgardian and Wiccan. And his jewish parents never had a problem with ANY of that. If you're looking for a squeaky-clean jewish representation, Billy was never it. That doesn't mean his jewishness should be erased, but it doesn't mean people should get offended by anything unorthodox in his story, because that's pretty much the core of the character ever since his creation.



I think the pentagram is just a basic aesthetic choice based on its presence within witchcraft culture. And since Billy IS a wizard, I don't think it's a big deal for the reasons I've stated above. Plus, I guess it's possible he wanted Billy's stars during his run to have five points because that is also how America's stars looked like. It might've been a hint that they were connected all along, before the big reveal of her origins in the final issues.

That being said, I agree that Billy could've used the six-pointed star. I mean, he still can. I don't think there's anything stopping that. As a character who is both a wizard and jewish, he could do both. It could even lead to some interesting stories about how he balances both sides of himself.



I meant Mar-Vell would need a retcon, because some of his enhancements happened AFTER the Kree/Skrull War, which means that Teddy wouldn't have inherited some of his powers if he was conceived before that.

Agree with all this currently he's listed as the "Sentient Lifeforce of the Universe" so whatever the distinctions between Demiurges is the lines are real blurred at the moment.

And yes that girl she's so annoying literally type in Billy Kaplan on tumblr it's the same BS just exhausting honestly, she literally forces her own head canon on the character and any other interpretation is immediately shamed/wrong/or out of character in her opinion. But I feel that's a consistent issue with YA fans always forcing head canons with no real validation behind them. I will never forget the Twitter outrage over Kate not being casted as asian, when that was never even established to begin with. And yes Billy being Jewish was practically a throwaway line, along with the 2 brothers, so why people feel he needs to be placed in this bubble and anything out of the ordinary is erasure is beyond me.

[Beetle]

There's very few Jewish superheroes at Marvel, I'm pretty sure you could count them on your fingers.
So I give a lot of leeway to folks who latched onto Billy as Jewish representation. Because for maybe the first 10 years or so of his history in comics that was one of the few things we really knew about his personal life and upbringing. It's completely different from Asian Kate, because it is canon

[Journey]

There's very few Jewish superheroes at Marvel, I'm pretty sure you could count them on your fingers.
So I give a lot of leeway to folks who latched onto Billy as Jewish representation. Because for maybe the first 10 years or so of his history in comics that was one of the few things we really knew about his personal life and upbringing. It's completely different from Asian Kate, because it is canon

True but at the same time it's barely addressed and hardly a make or break character trait for him. My main thing is just cause he displays other aspects outside of jewish norms doesn't mean it's erasure, characters change and grow and have multitudes of lairs.

[Frontier]

There's very few Jewish superheroes at Marvel, I'm pretty sure you could count them on your fingers.
So I give a lot of leeway to folks who latched onto Billy as Jewish representation. Because for maybe the first 10 years or so of his history in comics that was one of the few things we really knew about his personal life and upbringing. It's completely different from Asian Kate, because it is canon

[Beetle]

Edit: Nevermind

[Synestra]

So I saw some girl bitching on Tumblr about Billy's Demiurge status and how it erases his Judaism or whatever and I was wondering is Billy's Demiurge meant to be the same one who created the elder gods like Chthon and such or is it a separate divine entity? Was this ever commented on?

As for the Tumblr person, I think I know who you're talking about. Is it the person who pretty much hates everything with the Young Avengers that wasn't written by Heinberg and won't shut up about it? LOL. I just find it funny because, let's be real, it's not like Allan gave us some great jewish representation either. Billy being jewish came up like twice during his run, and it was never relevant to the story at all. Plus, his whole origin and superhero shtick were based on pagan concepts. I mean, the reincarnation of the magic demon child of the Scarlet Witch who would go on to take on the very non-orthodox identities of Asgardian and Wiccan. And his jewish parents never had a problem with ANY of that. If you're looking for a squeaky-clean jewish representation, Billy was never it. That doesn't mean his jewishness should be erased, but it doesn't mean people should get offended by anything unorthodox in his story, because that's pretty much the core of the character ever since his creation.

Yeah, that's definitely her. Funny thing, I saw her live at a panel about LGBT comic book characters that she held last year at Awesome Con in DC. Young Avengers was the major talking point of her panel, and she went on about how Kieron Gillen ruined the story and characters with Vol 2.

I think she understood that Billy's Demiurge is a different entity, but the claim was that to make him a god is insulting to his Jewish heritage.

Personally, I was pretty thrilled to see such a powerful gay character (Billy was always powerful, but his abilities were really elevated during that story line).

[Journey]

Yeah, that's definitely her. Funny thing, I saw her live at a panel about LGBT comic book characters that she held last year at Awesome Con in DC. Young Avengers was the major talking point of her panel, and she went on about how Kieron Gillen ruined the story and characters with Vol 2.

I think she understood that Billy's Demiurge is a different entity, but the claim was that to make him a god is insulting to his Jewish heritage.

Personally, I was pretty thrilled to see such a powerful gay character (Billy was always powerful, but his abilities were really elevated during that story line).

The Demiurge thing could literally make Billy one of the most prominent characters of the MU under the correct writer with a great story. I think what Gillen did was great for the character, and Ewing helped elevate him even more, even Tini is expanding on it in a subtle way.

[scourge]

The Demiurge thing could literally make Billy one of the most prominent characters of the MU under the correct writer with a great story. I think what Gillen did was great for the character, and Ewing helped elevate him even more, even Tini is expanding on it in a subtle way.

The Demiurge thing could be good but we definitely need a good writer for him.
Gillen made a mess, Ewing worked to clean it up, Tini's been doing nothing but making more messes, and hopefully Ewing or another writer will get to clean those up too.

[Drops Of Venus]

There's very few Jewish superheroes at Marvel, I'm pretty sure you could count them on your fingers.
So I give a lot of leeway to folks who latched onto Billy as Jewish representation. Because for maybe the first 10 years or so of his history in comics that was one of the few things we really knew about his personal life and upbringing. It's completely different from Asian Kate, because it is canon

I definitely don't blame people for latching onto Billy as a jewish representation. I get that. Like I said, I'm not saying that it's ok to erase his jewishness at all. I just think this specific claim of jewish erasure coming from this particular person is exaggerated. If you're gonna be a fan of a jewish character who also happens to be heavily immersed in witchcraft, don't be so surprised when writers actually portray him as, you know... witch-y.

At the end of the day, I think it all comes down to specific writers and what they are most comfortable writing about. Gillen and Tini seem to be more into the mystic stuff, and that is reflected on their portrayal of Billy. Ewing likes to blur the lines between magic and sci-fi/cosmic, and I felt that on his portrayal of Billy as well. Heinberg just kind of wanted to tell a classic superhero tale, so his Billy felt more neutral in certain aspects. I don't think anyone is actively trying to erase Billy being jewish; the problem is that we just never got a writer that wanted to explore that more deeply. I think Anthony Oliveira COULD be that guy if he got to write Billy on a more ongoing capacity, since he is into hebraic mythology and has discussed how that inspires his work. Let's hope he gets the chance.

Yeah, that's definitely her. Funny thing, I saw her live at a panel about LGBT comic book characters that she held last year at Awesome Con in DC. Young Avengers was the major talking point of her panel, and she went on about how Kieron Gillen ruined the story and characters with Vol 2.

I think she understood that Billy's Demiurge is a different entity, but the claim was that to make him a god is insulting to his Jewish heritage.

I love how we all just collectively know who it is, LOL. I stopped taking her seriously after she wrote this long ass text on Tumblr arguing why it's offensive for Billy to be a twink. Like, of all the takes in YA fandom, that's got to be the worst one I've ever read.

Personally, I was pretty thrilled to see such a powerful gay character (Billy was always powerful, but his abilities were really elevated during that story line).

Yup. Same. Straight characters have been the Deus Ex Machinas of comic books for decades. It was about damn time we got a gay character to join the club. I don't care what anyone says. We SHOULD have OP queer characters. I will never get tired of bragging about a gay guy being one of the most powerful Marvel heroes. And the fact that Gillen went beyond and above and literally made true gay love's kiss save the day? Award worthy. Which is also why I'm so excited about Teddy getting a power upgrade on Empyre. The gay agenda will not be completed until Billy and Teddy are crowned Earth's Mightiest Couple... literally!

[Old Owl]

This is question for all the Wiccan fans that may have been answered already.

Given the option would most Billy fans prefer him to be a mutant just a magic user?

I’m not a huge Wiccan fan, but I prefer it if he would be a human magic user.