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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Side note am I the only one who's genuinely annoyed at how Billy and Tommy's mutant indeities are left so obscure due to AXIS BullShit! Tommy would thrive with the X-Men. And Billy does the exact same shit as Franklin Richard's in nature and their making such a big deal about him getting an invitation. I just would like it to finally get addressed a definitive answer are they mutants yes or no! If yes give me a panel of them and Molly hayes laughing in Xavier's face at being invited to Krakoa!
    Given that their the sons of The Pretender Wanda Maximoff I think they'd do well to the X-Men and Krakoa a wide berth.

    Honestly I don't blame writers for ignorning it, between the retcon's and their own origins being a journey in itself why add the added complexity of them being mutants as well.

  2. #122
    Incredible Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    Given that their the sons of The Pretender Wanda Maximoff I think they'd do well to the X-Men and Krakoa a wide berth.

    Honestly I don't blame writers for ignorning it, between the retcon's and their own origins being a journey in itself why add the added complexity of them being mutants as well.
    Well considering "The Pretender Wanda Maximoff" was rumored to being reretconned a couple months back, and the only reason it happened was due to movie Bull Shit which is no longer a problem, I highly suspect that will be undone. It's already a flawed retcon to begin with. One of the most glaring red herrings is when Hope who can only "Manipulate the power of MUTANTS" took Wanda's power.

    And my thing is it's already an established thing. They've been addressed as mutants several times on page it's canon. Hell a future version of Billy was an X-Men! My thing I just hate that its gets ignored. It genuinely bugs me it's unnecessary and when mutant events happen and they seem entirely unaffected it makes me question things so if they want to retcon it, I would like it on page.
    Last edited by Journey; 01-12-2020 at 07:03 PM.

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Well considering "The Pretender Wanda Maximoff" was rumored to being reretconned a couple months back, and the only reason it happened was due to movie Bull Shit which is no longer a problem, I highly suspect that will be undone. It's already a flawed retcon to begin with. One of the most glaring red herrings is when Hope who can only "Manipulate the power of MUTANTS" took Wanda's power.

    And my thing is it's already an established thing. They've been addressed as mutants several times on page it's canon. Hell a future version of Billy was an X-Men! My thing I just hate that its gets ignored. It genuinely bugs me it's unnecessary and when mutant events happen and they seem entirely unaffected it makes me question things so if they want to retcon it, I would like it on page.
    Hope didn't take Wanda's power. Wanda used her chaos magic feeding into the PF to help Hope. Her mutant abilities, even before they were retconned out, were just simple energy wielding ones. And that's not based on the retcon from five years ago, but after Chthon was established decades ago.

    They can make Billy a mutant without Wanda being one, since he was born to other people. He only has William's spiritual essence.
    Was Curlytop

  4. #124
    Mighty Member marvelprince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    So what exactly is your issue with Speed being bi/queer then? that you find to be poor represtation or again that it doesn't meet your standards of what bisexuality looks like.

    Because if it's the former well sexuality is a spectrum, fictional or not I don't think anyone gets be an authorithan on it as not everyone fits into a neat box and have you ever considered that the reason Kieron Gillen didn't draw a hard line in the sand with everyone was because it's true to life that some people prefer not to label themselves or are still figuring things out and as as queer writer understood it can be a very complex/personal matter.

    Your approach to this whole thing seems overally pendantic to me, as you said yourself Tommy not the most prolific character but if a brief kiss was enough to get referenced by other writers/artists then it's clearly an idea that's taken root.

    If Bobby can come out after over 50 years of presumed straightness with nothing but fan speculation then by comparison I think Tommy a safe bet.
    Don't wanna speak for anyone, but I don't think its such much an issue with Tommy as queer but rather that the evidence pointing to it seems pretty thin. Personally, I had no idea till coming on this board that people thought that kiss with Prodigy and Tommy proved anything about his sexuality. It just seemed like a funny moment , I didn't take it as evidence for/against anything. Maybe it was too subtle for me to pick up on. Doesn't affect me either way.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvelprince View Post
    Don't wanna speak for anyone, but I don't think its such much an issue with Tommy as queer but rather that the evidence pointing to it seems pretty thin. Personally, I had no idea till coming on this board that people thought that kiss with Prodigy and Tommy proved anything about his sexuality. It just seemed like a funny moment , I didn't take it as evidence for/against anything. Maybe it was too subtle for me to pick up on. Doesn't affect me either way.
    I suppose from my perspective is simply why wouldn't they now? his brother one half the most famous gay couples in comics and Kieron Gillen made a point of making YJ pretty queer all round, if he felt motivated enough to even imply something with Tommy then I thinks its a given.

    And if that was enough that other creator's took notice then it seems more a case that the only reason it hasn't been expanded on further (so people can get that luscious hard, undeniable evidence) is simply because Tommy not used that much period.

  6. #126
    Extraordinary Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post

    Side note am I the only one who's genuinely annoyed at how Billy and Tommy's mutant indenities are left so obscure due to AXIS BullShit! Tommy would thrive with the X-Men. And Billy does the exact same shit as Franklin Richard's in nature and their making such a big deal about him getting an invitation. I just would like it to finally get addressed a definitive answer are they mutants yes or no! If yes give me a panel of them and Molly hayes laughing in Xavier's face at being invited to Krakoa!
    I'm not so much mad, as I am disappointed.
    We've been blessed with 2 specific encounters with the X-Men now -- one of which was written by the YA creator himself (Heinberg's Crusade) and the other being Bendis's Battle of the Atom -- explicitly identifying Billy (and Tommy, in CC) as mutants. Honestly, there is so much drama to dig into in addressing this within the X-family/Krakoa. Their relationship to Wanda, their feelings about that relationship and how it does or does not define them within the mutant community, the tensions that may or may not cause within the X-world, the tension that may or may not cause between the brothers (if one sought to join Krakoa -- likely Tommy -- while the other did not -- likely Billy), etc etc etc.

    I mean, if Billy specifically were invited to Krakoa and IF he accepted, he'd likely be relegated to being a back up to THE FIVE or silently stalked by Sinister but I still want his mutancy canonized in a post Krakoan world.

    Last edited by Fokken; 01-13-2020 at 07:00 AM.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fokken View Post
    I'm not so much mad, as I am disappointed.
    We've been blessed with 2 specific encounters with the X-Men now -- one of which was written by the YA creator himself (Heinberg's Crusade) and the other being Bendis's Battle of the Atom -- explicitly identifying Billy (and Tommy, in CC) as mutants. Honestly, there is so much drama to dig into in addressing this within the X-family/Krakoa. Their relationship to Wanda, their feelings about that relationship and how it does or does not define them within the mutant community, the tensions that may or may not cause within the X-world, the tension that may or may not cause between the brothers (if one sought to join Krakoa -- likely Tommy -- while the other did not -- likely Billy), etc etc etc.

    I mean, if Billy specifically were invited to Krakoa and IF he accepted, he'd likely be relegated to being a back up to THE FIVE or silently stalked by Sinister but I still want his mutancy canonized in a post Krakoan world.

    As much as I know the only reason they were considers mutants was because their connection with Wanda. Now that she is “The Pretender” . And in the Battle of Atom future ahogo was also member of the X-men and he was human and Molly was member of the brotherhood and she has been retconed as an artificial mutant.

  8. #128
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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  9. #129
    Incredible Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Does this mean they Murdered David so he could get his powers back? Cause if he was depowered wouldn't he not be able to walk through the gate?

  10. #130
    Astonishing Member Beetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Does this mean they Murdered David so he could get his powers back? Cause if he was depowered wouldn't he not be able to walk through the gate?
    Regular humans can go through the gates if they are authorized guests and are accompanied by mutants

    Also Krakoa has been trying to come up with a plan to repower the 2 million mutants who lost their powers. They may have made an exception for them with the gates

  11. #131
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Williams said on Twitter Prodigy gets his powers back and it's part of the storyline. But yes humans are allowed on Krakoa. Northstar's husband is part of the supporting cast.

  12. #132
    Incredible Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetle View Post
    Regular humans can go through the gates if they are authorized guests and are accompanied by mutants

    Also Krakoa has been trying to come up with a plan to repower the 2 million mutants who lost their powers. They may have made an exception for them with the gates
    Well if that's the case they've come a long way from just kicking out all the kids who lost their powers.

  13. #133
    Astonishing Member Beetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Well if that's the case they've come a long way from just kicking out all the kids who lost their powers.
    They were sending them away because the school was increasingly becoming a target and they had already gotten a student maimed and mangled, Icarus had gotten his wings chopped off and he was dropped off on their front porch.

    Also David himself was never kicked out, he stayed until Utopia fell. And even then he chose to leave, only to go back after he couldn't find a job in human society any better than a call center

  14. #134
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Which is where he was when he was recruited to the Young Avengers. He was also listed on the Champions Reinforcement Roster in 2019's Champions #1, but nobody on that list ever physically showed up.
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  15. #135
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Side note am I the only one who's genuinely annoyed at how Billy and Tommy's mutant indenities are left so obscure due to AXIS BullShit! Tommy would thrive with the X-Men. And Billy does the exact same shit as Franklin Richard's in nature and their making such a big deal about him getting an invitation. I just would like it to finally get addressed a definitive answer are they mutants yes or no! If yes give me a panel of them and Molly hayes laughing in Xavier's face at being invited to Krakoa!
    Their alleged mutant identities were always ignored, even before the AXIS/Uncanny Avengers retcons. Billy and Tommy were always completely detached from X-Men stories that were supposed to affect all mutants. Take M-Day for example; they were around when that happened, and they still had their powers, which means that if they were mutants, they would be one of the very few valuable ones left on Earth. And yet, the X-Men never came for them. They were never invited to Utopia or got involved in any of the drama of that time. They only ever met the X-Men officially during Avengers: Children's Crusade, and the only thing that came out of that was Emma calling them mutants while using her powers to mind trick them, so I'm not sure how reliable she was during that moment. After that we got AvX and, again, Billy and Tommy didn't have any role to play in something that involved both mutants and Avengers, even though they had just crossed over with both. Then we get the M-Pox story and nothing came out of it, even though Billy was active during that time and one of his New Avengers teammates (Sunspot) was sick because of it. Al Ewing even brought up how Squirrel Girl wasn't sick because she wasn't a mutant anymore, but didn't say anything about Billy, like he was not supposed to count at all. And now, of course, Krakoa... and still nothing, even though Billy has been pretty active in comics for the last several months. That's why I just go with Occam's Razor here and assume they are not mutants, 'cause that's exactly how they are treated.

    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    So what exactly is your issue with Speed being bi/queer then? that you find to be poor represtation or again that it doesn't meet your standards of what bisexuality looks like.

    Because if it's the former well sexuality is a spectrum, fictional or not I don't think anyone gets be an authorithan on it as not everyone fits into a neat box and have you ever considered that the reason Kieron Gillen didn't draw a hard line in the sand with everyone was because it's true to life that some people prefer not to label themselves or are still figuring things out and as as queer writer understood it can be a very complex/personal matter.

    Your approach to this whole thing seems overally pendantic to me, as you said yourself Tommy not the most prolific character but if a brief kiss was enough to get referenced by other writers/artists then it's clearly an idea that's taken root.
    I'm not against the idea; I'm against fans trying to make it something more than it actually was. I don't think it's a big deal to ask for standards as to what counts as representation, otherwise anything can count as a representation and that can very easily turn into a problem, with companies thinking that they don't even need to do the bare minimum with queer rep in order to give fans the representation they want.

    It's true that sexuality is a spectrum, but you are giving too much credit to what Kieron Gillen actually did with Tommy. He didn't write some complex story about Tommy's sexuality; he literally wrote one page in which he is kissed by a guy by accident, he pushes him away, yells at him and then proceeds to completely ignore him so he can dance with a girl. And then this kiss is used as a joke at the end so a character could act shocked and wonder if she's the only straight person there. That was it. If someone wanted to use this moment to write something more substantial in the future? That would be great. But no one has done that. So, as it stands, I don't see why I should consider it as an actual representation. I will when someone gives me a reason to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Good for him. I've always liked him as an X-Man more than a Young Avenger anyway. I think it's where he truly belongs.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 01-13-2020 at 01:33 PM.

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