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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modamy View Post
    The only thing that would come from Miles being anything other than Spider-Man would be a huge drop in popularity. The only people who are troubled by him being Spider-Man are people who don't care for the character. All Miles needs is to stop having concepts derivative of Peter forced on to him and have his actually character and supporting cast respected.
    Would it though? If his fans alone already refer to him as Miles I doubt a different codename gonna change much in the long run.

    I like Miles fine but as a black guy always found the concept of him being called Spiderman to be well-intentioned but problematic, it always read to me as less "You've earned this name Miles because of your own merits" and more "You sharing the name with this more famous white guy makes you important by association, this is progress"

    Also how more derivative can one get other than sharing the same name?

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerwrax15 View Post
    And thats a-ok, that would still be the case even if he was running around in his own universe as Spider-Man, he would still need to specified as Miles. And even if he needs to be specified, so what? This isn't the Highlander, we have 2 Scarlet Spiders too, its just a thing in the Marvel Universe. i would expect to see Johnny Storm and Kate Bishop on the chopping block before Miles ever is. And no "Better Hawkeye" is not a different name from Hawkeye. Peter acknowledge him ad Spider-Man, his peers acknowledge him as Spider-Man, other heroes in the community acknowledge him is as Spider-Man, its been ingrained to the character from his inception, it is meant to be his identity, not a very long beginning footnote before jumping to something else.
    Honestly I think they'll be a day when this will all be looked back at as being a product of its time.

    A step forward in progression but a stepping stone towards a day when we have a diverse selection of heroes truly defined by their own merits hopefully.

  3. #18
    Spectacular Member Modamy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    Would it though? If his fans alone already refer to him as Miles I doubt a different codename gonna change much in the long run.

    I like Miles fine but as a black guy always found the concept of him being called Spiderman to be well-intentioned but problematic, it always read to me as less "You've earned this name Miles because of your own merits" and more "You sharing the name with this more famous white guy makes you important by association, this is progress"

    Also how more derivative can one get other than sharing the same name?
    Newer readers are more likely to pick up Spider-Man than whatever random name they would give to Miles in exchange.

    How is it problematic for Miles to be Spider-Man? Miles as Spider-Man means something to people and he'd just be forgotten otherwise like all of the other Spider-Man legacies. Writers actually moving the character forward with concepts and ideas that work for his character is what Miles needs most now.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modamy View Post
    Newer readers are more likely to pick up Spider-Man than whatever random name they would give to Miles in exchange.

    How is it problematic for Miles to be Spider-Man? Miles as Spider-Man means something to people and he'd just be forgotten otherwise like all of the other Spider-Man legacies. Writers actually moving the character forward with concepts and ideas that work for his character is what Miles needs most now.
    There no hard rule as to what may or may not sell, Naomi a completely original work feautring a young black girl that sold very well surprisingly enough with her appearance seemingly helping to boost the sales of a Superman comic.

    There's an inherent glass ceiling to Miles that's undeniable. A young black boy with no prior knowledge could grow up loving Miles but there will come a day when he realises the white Spiderman is far away more important and beloved than the one that looks like him and that's going to be rude awakening for him to how the world is.

    Again I get why there such an insistence that he be called Spiderman as it gives the idea or at least the illusion that him and Peter are equals but the simple truth is there not and likely never will be.

    He'll always be a spin-off of Spiderman (that simply can't be escaped) but at least with his own name I'd feel he have a better chance at carving out his own identity and again the dialogue between him and Peter would just be less awkward.
    Last edited by walk; 01-01-2020 at 06:38 PM.

  5. #20
    Spectacular Member Modamy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    There no hard rule to what may or may not sell, Naomi a completely original work feautring a young black girl sold very well surprisingly enough and her appearance seemingly helped boost the sales of a Superman comic.

    There an inherent glass ceiling to Miles that's undeniable. A young black boy with no prior knowledge could grow up loving Miles but there will come a day when he realises the white Spiderman is far away more important and beloved than the one that looks like him and that's going to be rude awakening for him to how the world is.

    Again I get why there such an insistence that he be called Spiderman as it gives the idea or at least the illusion that him and Peter are equals but the simple truth is there not and likely never will be.

    He'll always be a spin-off of Spiderman (that simply can't be escaped) but at least with his own name I'd feel he have a better chance at carving out his own identity.
    I respect your opinion, but for now I think what Miles needs is to remain Spider-Man. You may feel that Miles will never be Peter's equal, but that doesn't really diminish the idea that a black or latino kid can be a hero that many people love like Spider-Man and for some (like me) it doesn't matter that he's a spin-off. Miles is always going to be derivative of Peter and giving him a new name does nothing more than hurt his chances of getting new fans. He needs a strong writer with ideas to move the character forward without constantly linking him to Peter and support from Marvel. He's got support and now he's just waiting on a good writer that actually cares about the character.

  6. #21
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    Why the heck would that young black boy care if there is a more popular character than the character he has already grown up loving?

    "That Spider-Man over there is liked by more people than the Spider-Man i grew up loving and being inspired by, i guess i can't like him anymore "

    By that time hopefully the boy is mature enough to be okay with liking what he likes and not what the majority of people do.
    Last edited by Nerwrax15; 01-01-2020 at 07:09 PM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    There no hard rule as to what may or may not sell, Naomi a completely original work feautring a young black girl that sold very well surprisingly enough with her appearance seemingly helping to boost the sales of a Superman comic.
    And she's by Bendis too, just like Miles was.

    Have you been reading Flash recently? That has a similar thing going on - he has two teenage sidekicks. Kid Flash is one, but the other one, Avery Ho, was previously in New Super-Man as part of the Justice League of China... and therefore her codename is Flash, the same as Barry Allen's. As a result, she's always referred to as Avery. There's actually a third Flash as well (Wally West), but he's currently in his own book (Flash Forward) and not interacting with the others.
    Last edited by Digifiend; 01-01-2020 at 07:08 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerwrax15 View Post
    Why the heck would that young black boy care if there is a more popular character than the character he has already grown up loving?

    "That Spider-Man over is liked by more people than the Spider-Man i grew up loving and being inspired by, i guess i can't like him anymore "

    By that time hopefully the boy is mature enough to be okay with liking what he likes and not what the majority of people do.
    Are you for real?

    All I'll say is the media I consumed as a black child made it impossible for me to envision myself as anything but the sidekick or supporting friend in even my own imagination for a long time growing up.

    And while I'd imagine I'd enjoy Miles as a kid I'd likely start to notice that it's was Peter and not him who was featured in all big movies, tv shows and video games.

    Can't break it down any more simpler than that and your either just willfully ignorant or trolling.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    And she's by Bendis too, just like Miles was.

    Have you been reading Flash recently? That has a similar thing going on - he has two teenage sidekicks. Kid Flash is one, but the other one, Avery Ho, was previously in New Super-Man as part of the Justice League of China... and therefore her codename is Flash, the same as Barry Allen's. As a result, she's always referred to as Avery. There's actually a third Flash as well (Wally West), but he's currently in his own book (Flash Forward) and not interacting with the others.
    As critical as I am of Bendis writing I do respect the man push for more diversity in comics, though I think instead of simply creating characters of colour I feel he should be using his position to help a more diverse selection writers be the more authentic voices behind said characters.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    Are you for real?

    All I'll say is the media I consumed as a black child made it impossible for me to envision myself as anything but the sidekick or supporting friend in even my own imagination for a long time growing up.

    And while I'd imagine I'd enjoy Miles as a kid I'd likely start to notice that it's was Peter and not him who was featured in all big movies, tv shows and video games.

    Can't break it down any more simpler than that and your either just willfully ignorant or trolling.
    If you think a name switch is gonna change all that then im not sure what to say, Miles could change his name to Wallsocket tomorrow and i assure you people aren't gonna magically say HEY MAYBE HE CAN BE A BIGGER HERO THAN PETER AFTER ALL. There is no going up from "Spider-Man", a Spider-Man who has already headlined his own feature film.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    There no hard rule as to what may or may not sell, Naomi a completely original work feautring a young black girl that sold very well surprisingly enough with her appearance seemingly helping to boost the sales of a Superman comic.

    There's an inherent glass ceiling to Miles that's undeniable. A young black boy with no prior knowledge could grow up loving Miles but there will come a day when he realises the white Spiderman is far away more important and beloved than the one that looks like him and that's going to be rude awakening for him to how the world is.

    Again I get why there such an insistence that he be called Spiderman as it gives the idea or at least the illusion that him and Peter are equals but the simple truth is there not and likely never will be.

    He'll always be a spin-off of Spiderman (that simply can't be escaped) but at least with his own name I'd feel he have a better chance at carving out his own identity and again the dialogue between him and Peter would just be less awkward.
    Couldn't disagree with this more. As a causal fan, I don't see the big deal of him also being called Spiderman even though Peter Parker is around. Kind of like the Harlem Globetrotters, we all know that they're not the original ones. We still go see them do their thing and appreciate the skills. Writers need to make sure they don't make Miles I to a Finn (incompetent simp) in a team scene and he will be fine. His naming isn't as much an issue as the tendency to push Ms. Marvel in front of him in the Champions books.

  12. #27
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    This feels like a conversation that should be happening in the Miles Appreciation Thread then in the Champions Appreciation Thread.

    To get back on-topic, what are peoples hopes/expectations for Eve Ewing's relaunch and the Outlawed storyline?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    This feels like a conversation that should be happening in the Miles Appreciation Thread then in the Champions Appreciation Thread.

    To get back on-topic, what are peoples hopes/expectations for Eve Ewing's relaunch and the Outlawed storyline?
    Im down for just about anything, just as long as they dont get into a fist fight with one another and if any leave its on amicable terms, Champions has been pretty good about that, devil deals not withstanding.

  14. #29
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    Yeah, I definitely see the team being trimmed down. It had 15 members at the end of Zub's run, not counting the no-show Reinforcement Roster. When the under 21 vigilante ban comes in, I can see a few people choosing to retire (like Firestar did in Civil War - she did, of course, later come back, as part of the shortlived Young Allies team). Snowguard and Locust may decide to go home, as they're both non-Americans (Canadian and Mexican). Amadeus may also exile himself, by going to the Agents of Atlas full time. Since that team is based in Asia, it won't be affected by the law. And bear in mind, that senator called him out specifically. We don't know why Kamala was missing in that preview for Outlawed, but I wouldn't surprised if it's because she's injured. After all, the incident that triggers the law is called the Coles Disaster.... as in Coles Academical, her school. Something's supposed to have happened to Viv as well.

    If Kamala is incapacitated for any length of time, and with second in command Viv also out of action, who would you like to take charge?
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  15. #30
    Spectacular Member Modamy's Avatar
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    I would think since Amadeus was directly referenced he'd end up important to Ewing's story. He also seems the most likely candidate as leader without Kamala or Viv, but like you said he'd probably be busy leading the Agents of Atlas. So maybe Miles and Sam will have to step up just based on seniority.

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