Champions Appreciation 2020

[Frontier]

Preview for issue #2
http://www.multiversitycomics.com/previews/champions-2/

Should I know this Lola girl? It feels like I should...

Oh, and I see what Eve Ewing meant about being surprisingly topical...

[Huntsman Spider]

Should I know this Lola girl? It feels like I should...

Oh, and I see what Eve Ewing meant about being surprisingly topical...

Definitely. Lola's point about safety and security being used as excuses and license for the state to control, punish, and repress those who won't conform is one I strongly vibe with, but I can also see the opposing point about glorifying vigilantism even at the expense of those caught in the crossfire. After all, the Champions formed in the first place because to Kamala, it seemed that adult heroes such as the Avengers didn't care all that much about "collateral damage" to civilian lives and livelihoods. In that light, it would be a bit of tragic irony for people to now think that it was them who didn't care about the damage done to their civilian peers.

[Frontier]

Definitely. Lola's point about safety and security being used as excuses and license for the state to control, punish, and repress those who won't conform is one I strongly vibe with, but I can also see the opposing point about glorifying vigilantism even at the expense of those caught in the crossfire. After all, the Champions formed in the first place because to Kamala, it seemed that adult heroes such as the Avengers didn't care all that much about "collateral damage" to civilian lives and livelihoods. In that light, it would be a bit of tragic irony for people to now think that it was them who didn't care about the damage done to their civilian peers.

To be honest, I've always felt like the team needed to get off their high horse about the adult heroes in Civil War II. It was never going to really fly for them to keep bringing that up as a motivation for the team in my opinion.

[J. D. Guy]

To be honest, I've always felt like the team needed to get off their high horse about the adult heroes in Civil War II. It was never going to really fly for them to keep bringing that up as a motivation for the team in my opinion.

I noticed you tend to side with the adult Marvel heroes.

Be that as it may, the Champions/Teen-heroes criticizing the adult Marvel heroes does make sense, and shouldn't be down-played like as the younger heroes "needing to stay in their lane". That feels ageist, even in the confines of analysis of a fictional story.

[Frontier]

I noticed you tend to side with the adult Marvel heroes.

Be that as it may, the Champions/Teen-heroes criticizing the adult Marvel heroes does make sense, and shouldn't be down-played like as the younger heroes "needing to stay in their lane". That feels ageist, even in the confines of analysis of a fictional story.

I don't know if I'm deliberately siding with the adult heroes so much as just looking at things from both perspectives instead of decrying one group over the other or assuming the kids are automatically right.

I don't believe the younger heroes need to "stay in their lane" but they also don't have the experience and career of the adult heroes, and while that fresh perspective can be useful in looking at things in a different way it can also make them look at things in a skewed way or be unwilling to see things from a view that isn't their own in my opinion. Neither of them, kids or adults, make perfect decisions but they both try their best.

Like, Civil War II was pretty awful, but it's not like the kids were uninvolved or didn't join up with the adults fighting for both sides.

[Huntsman Spider]

I don't know if I'm deliberately siding with the adult heroes so much as just looking at things from both perspectives instead of decrying one group over the other or assuming the kids are automatically right.

I don't believe the younger heroes need to "stay in their lane" but they also don't have the experience and career of the adult heroes, and while that fresh perspective can be useful in looking at things in a different way it can also make them look at things in a skewed way or be unwilling to see things from a view that isn't their own in my opinion. Neither of them, kids or adults, make perfect decisions but they both try their best.

Like, Civil War II was pretty awful, but it's not like the kids were uninvolved or didn't join up with the adults fighting for both sides.

You might actually like Outlawed, then, because Eve Ewing so far seems to be making it clear throughout the actual plotting and characterization in this that the world --- whether in real-life terms or Marvel Universe terms --- is far more complex than simply "one side good, other side bad." The main failure of both Civil Wars was that despite both sides going to extremes in certain ways, one side was written out as far worse and far less morally defensible compared to the other, though ironically, it was the "more wrong" side that triumphed in both cases, only for that triumph to turn into a pyrrhic victory as it played into the hands of even worse villains who exploited the ill will generated by the conflict for their own gain. At least here, she seems to be making the case that just because someone has genuine conviction and raises a good argument, that doesn't automatically make them right or give them the right to ignore the arguments and viewpoints of their opponents.

[J. D. Guy]

I don't know if I'm deliberately siding with the adult heroes so much as just looking at things from both perspectives instead of decrying one group over the other or assuming the kids are automatically right.

I don't believe the younger heroes need to "stay in their lane" but they also don't have the experience and career of the adult heroes, and while that fresh perspective can be useful in looking at things in a different way it can also make them look at things in a skewed way or be unwilling to see things from a view that isn't their own in my opinion. Neither of them, kids or adults, make perfect decisions but they both try their best.

Like, Civil War II was pretty awful, but it's not like the kids were uninvolved or didn't join up with the adults fighting for both sides.

My first point has to do with how I've seen your take on the Champions in general; this isn't the first or second time I've seen you speak against the kids' position. Conversely, I've never really seen you do opposite within this thread.

As well, the Marvel adult heroes can be, and have shown themselves to be on multiple occasions, just as myopic as you fear the young heroes to be. Which was indeed the very point that led to the original formation of the Champions.

[J. D. Guy]

You might actually like Outlawed, then, because Eve Ewing so far seems to be making it clear throughout the actual plotting and characterization in this that the world --- whether in real-life terms or Marvel Universe terms --- is far more complex than simply "one side good, other side bad." The main failure of both Civil Wars was that despite both sides going to extremes in certain ways, one side was written out as far worse and far less morally defensible compared to the other, though ironically, it was the "more wrong" side that triumphed in both cases, only for that triumph to turn into a pyrrhic victory as it played into the hands of even worse villains who exploited the ill will generated by the conflict for their own gain. At least here, she seems to be making the case that just because someone has genuine conviction and raises a good argument, that doesn't automatically make them right or give them the right to ignore the arguments and viewpoints of their opponents.

Yeah. Eve Ewing has been trying to, and seemingly doing well at, showcase more than a single viewpoint, so as to keep the story nuanced and to let the reader leave with their own takeaways, including, ideally, balanced ones.

[Frontier]

My first point has to do with how I've seen your take on the Champions in general; this isn't the first or second time I've seen you speak against the kids' position. Conversely, I've never really seen you do opposite within this thread.

Just because I feel like the stance hasn't held up so well the longer they've stuck to it (in my personal opinion). I understood why they did it originally, and I get how Civil War II was so traumatizing for them, but it's kind of worn thin for me the longer it's been since it happened.

Of course, if we get another Hero vs Hero story where the Champions manage to stay completely out of it, that would definitely be a good character moment for the group.

As well, the Marvel adult heroes can be, and have shown themselves to be on multiple occasions, just as myopic as you fear the young heroes to be. Which was indeed the very point that led to the original formation of the Champions.

So with that in mind I don't think they're all that different in terms of their ideals and position.

Yeah. Eve Ewing has been trying to, and seemingly doing well at, showcase more than a single viewpoint, so as to keep the story nuanced and to let the reader leave with their own takeaways, including, ideally, balanced ones.

Which I am very glad for .

[Huntsman Spider]

My first point has to do with how I've seen your take on the Champions in general; this isn't the first or second time I've seen you speak against the kids' position. Conversely, I've never really seen you do opposite within this thread.

As well, the Marvel adult heroes can be, and have shown themselves to be on multiple occasions, just as myopic as you fear the young heroes to be. Which was indeed the very point that led to the original formation of the Champions.

Yeah. Eve Ewing has been trying to, and seemingly doing well at, showcase more than a single viewpoint, so as to keep the story nuanced and to let the reader leave with their own takeaways, including, ideally, balanced ones.

Just because I feel like the stance hasn't held up so well the longer they've stuck to it (in my personal opinion). I understood why they did it originally, and I get how Civil War II was so traumatizing for them, but it's kind of worn thin for me the longer it's been since it happened.

Of course, if we get another Hero vs Hero story where the Champions manage to stay completely out of it, that would definitely be a good character moment for the group.

So with that in mind I don't think they're all that different in terms of their ideals and position.

Which I am very glad for .

Personally, I can see both sides, but at this point, I would still put more blame on the adults, heroes and civilians, in general because they're the ones who are supposed to "know better" than those "naive kids" and yet they make the same damn mistakes over and over and over again, ignoring or neglecting the future impact of those mistakes on the younger generations that will end up inheriting and having to fix the mess those adults will have left behind. That's what I think Eve Ewing is addressing here, while also adding the nuance that Kamala might not necessarily have the best perspective on how to confront and fix the mistakes of the older generations.

[Digifiend]

Captain America is siding with Miles:
https://www.cbr.com/outlawed-miles-m...ptain-america/

That article's writer needs to re-read Outlawed #1, Magnificent Ms. Marvel #14-15 and Champions #1. Kamala's secret identity wasn't revealed as they claim.

[Frontier]

spoilers:

Great job making Riri a fugitive, guys!

end of spoilers

[Digifiend]

Unrelated...
spoilers:

When was Starling captured? They took Locust and Snowguard in Outlawed #1, and Bombshell and Wasp in Champions #1, but Starling was there instead of Wasp at the re-education center in Champions #2.

end of spoilers

[Will Evans]

If you’re from Chicago, there’s an injoke in today’s Champions for you.

On Riri’s tv: “Look at those low rates..”

Yep, Eagleman.

[Frontier]

Unrelated...
spoilers:

When was Starling captured? They took Locust and Snowguard in Outlawed #1, and Bombshell and Wasp in Champions #1, but Starling was there instead of Wasp at the re-education center in Champions #2.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

She was captured off-panel?

end of spoilers