Susan Storm-Richards: The Invisible Woman Appreciation 2020

[whitecrown]

Byrne was one of the few FF writers that wasn't afraid to do something with Sue as apposed to her currently being reduced to a boring supporting character.

Thank goodness for Byrne otherwise she might still be the Invisible Girl to this day.

[Crimz]

Thank goodness for Byrne otherwise she might still be the Invisible Girl to this day.

And I can see Byrne's change not going over well with some fans if done today with how resistant to any change a lot of fans are today.
I can already see SJW this and that, and people claiming she was better as the Invisible Girl.

[CaptCleghorn]

And I can see Byrne's change not going over well with some fans if done today with how resistant to any change a lot of fans are today.
I can already see SJW this and that, and people claiming she was better as the Invisible Girl.

I can see Val looking her in the eyes and saying, "Invisible GIRL? WTF, Mom?"

[whitecrown]

And I can see Byrne's change not going over well with some fans if done today with how resistant to any change a lot of fans are today.
I can already see SJW this and that, and people claiming she was better as the Invisible Girl.

Exactly. Considering all the flack Carol got from upgrading to Captain Marvel from Ms. Marvel, I would imagine something 10x worse for Marvel's First Family as all the bigots who don't even care for the FF would suddenly be outraged at Sue declaring herself a woman.

It always bothered me, for example, that Jean Grey was Marvel Girl whereas Bobby Drake, who was younger than Jean, was Iceman and not Iceboy.

[CaptCleghorn]

Exactly. Considering all the flack Carol got from upgrading to Captain Marvel from Ms. Marvel, I would imagine something 10x worse for Marvel's First Family as all the bigots who don't even care for the FF would suddenly be outraged at Sue declaring herself a woman.

It always bothered me, for example, that Jean Grey was Marvel Girl whereas Bobby Drake, who was younger than Jean, was Iceman and not Iceboy.

I am bothered that this X-Men fact has never occurred to me. The combination of realizing my male privilege and my fankid knowledge of characters not making the connection is something I must think about.

[Oberon]

Having Sue be the leader, or at least on some de facto level. I'm not sure if they're going with "plot into the universe all brand new" or doing a take on Cap/off planet and/or suspended animation, but as you say it could differentiate them as well as make plot points and arcs more available. Maybe some merging of the Ultimate original and the 616 one. Sue and Johnny inherited their father's fortunes and helped finance Reed. The Storms are rich kids, so they should have been college or trained. Their ship should be called .. . . "The Cosmic Storm"

[Oberon]

To be fair some of this began in the several years before Byrne took over.

Around # 159, Reed put an amplifying head band on Sue to massively increase her powers. The effects were later said to have enhanced her permanently.

Later, # 170 or in between, George Pererz took over and really increased her abilities, visually (I know there was another writer, Wolfman?) but there were scenes showing Sue explaining how she could bi-focus on more than one thing with the FFs.

Another is around the early # 200s with the Xandar/Sphinx adventure (one of my favorites!) but the aging ray (and this was a story John B drew but I think Wolfman wrote) 's reversal decreased the ages of 3 of the FF, with it said Sue being younger than Reed and Ben may have tweaked back even more. Since that time, maybe slightly before Sue's portrayal's with the powers or other invisible things slowly improved.

But yes, John Byrne totally took it beyond and it has since, more or less, many mundane/type articles would indicate that she may be the most powerful member.

[whitecrown]

I am bothered that this X-Men fact has never occurred to me. The combination of realizing my male privilege and my fankid knowledge of characters not making the connection is something I must think about.

It didn't really occur to me until recently either but reading the letter pages for X-Factor issues in the 80s pointed out that Jean Grey was a grown woman and practically had two children but she was still going by Marvel Girl. Fans were asking if we could expect a name upgrade for her like Marvel Woman, much like Sue had gotten a few years prior. And then it did dawn on me that in the 60s, we had teen heroes like Spider-Man and Iceman but female characters were Marvel Girl and the Invisible Girl, even though Sue wasn't even a teenager but a grown woman herself.

[whitecrown]

To be fair some of this began in the several years before Byrne took over.

Around # 159, Reed put an amplifying head band on Sue to massively increase her powers. The effects were later said to have enhanced her permanently.

Later, # 170 or in between, George Pererz took over and really increased her abilities, visually (I know there was another writer, Wolfman?) but there were scenes showing Sue explaining how she could bi-focus on more than one thing with the FFs.

Another is around the early # 200s with the Xandar/Sphinx adventure (one of my favorites!) but the aging ray (and this was a story John B drew but I think Wolfman wrote) 's reversal decreased the ages of 3 of the FF, with it said Sue being younger than Reed and Ben may have tweaked back even more. Since that time, maybe slightly before Sue's portrayal's with the powers or other invisible things slowly improved.

But yes, John Byrne totally took it beyond and it has since, more or less, many mundane/type articles would indicate that she may be the most powerful member.

That's definitely true but even with the power increases, Sue still felt like an afterthought in that era. Which makes sense as well because Johnny and Ben were the two popular characters who were the faces of the team and Reed was the leader and the big brain who would come up with all the solutions. But I remember reading old letter pages where fans complained that in the 70s, Marvel had introduced a new breed of heroines like Storm, Phoenix, Valkyrie, Tigra, Ms. Marvel, Spider-Woman, etc. and even Scarlet Witch had gotten an upgrade, but Sue wasn't really that different from the Sue of the 60s and she certainly didn't feel like an empowered heroine. Ironically enough some of the letter pages were actually praising the fact that Sue hadn't been changed to be more like the aforementioned women and how Marvel needed some women to still "act and feel like women."

[Electricmastro]

It didn't really occur to me until recently either but reading the letter pages for X-Factor issues in the 80s pointed out that Jean Grey was a grown woman and practically had two children but she was still going by Marvel Girl. Fans were asking if we could expect a name upgrade for her like Marvel Woman, much like Sue had gotten a few years prior. And then it did dawn on me that in the 60s, we had teen heroes like Spider-Man and Iceman but female characters were Marvel Girl and the Invisible Girl, even though Sue wasn't even a teenager but a grown woman herself.

Yeah, I think Stan and Jack were more or less defaulting to how 40s heroic duos of a man and woman would go by names like Bulletman & Bulletgirl, The Flame & Flame Girl, and Lightning & Lightning Girl, as if being a sidekick role, even though they would be roughly the same age as each other, so it does seem awkward to have Sue, though not even a sidekick, still be marketed as Invisible Girl in the 60s, and as such for years until John Byrne came along.

[whitecrown]

Yeah, I think Stan and Jack were more or less going on how 40s heroic duos of a man and woman would go by names like Bulletman & Bulletgirl, The Flame & Flame Girl, and Lightning & Lightning Girl, as if being a sidekick role, even though they would be roughly the same age as each other, so it does seem awkward to have Sue, though not even a sidekick, still be marketed as Invisible Girl for years until John Byrne came along.

That's definitely prominent in DC as well with Hawkman and Hawkgirl or Superman and Supergirl (even if she was younger than him). We may have a Batwoman now but I don't think there's ever been a Superwoman or anything like that. And frankly, in some issues of the FF, it did come across like Sue was a sidekick. I really love that Byrne issue where Sue has that TV interview and she's flat out confronted by the fact that many fans feel she doesn't pull her weight and constantly gets captured and Sue is able to refute it all and prove her worth on the team. It was a good way to make sense of how she had been portrayed the past few decades without glossing over anything. That was one of the first FF issues I ever read so I could never see Sue as being anything less than that.

[Electricmastro]

That's definitely prominent in DC as well with Hawkman and Hawkgirl or Superman and Supergirl (even if she was younger than him). We may have a Batwoman now but I don't think there's ever been a Superwoman or anything like that. And frankly, in some issues of the FF, it did come across like Sue was a sidekick.

I think the only compelling reason a hero would call themselves “Boy” or “Girl” throughout their lives is if they wanted to have an “eternal youth” aspect to them, like Garfield Logan referring to himself as “Beast Boy” instead of “Beast Man” even into his 40s because he wants to be retain something youthful about himself. So there’s that, but that’s not how it was being framed with Sue, as Invisible Girl and Beast Boy definitely weren’t overly-similar characters, along with Sue raising children and such.

Also an interesting note: there was a Superwoman in 1943’s Action Comics #60:

[whitecrown]

I think the only compelling reason a hero would call themselves “Boy” or “Girl” throughout their lives is if they wanted to have an “eternal youth” aspect to them, like Garfield Logan referring to himself as “Beast Boy” instead of “Beast Man” even into his 40s because he wants to be retain something youthful about himself. So there’s that, but that’s not how it was being framed with Sue, as Invisible Girl and Beast Boy definitely weren’t overly-similar characters, along with Sue raising children and such.

Also an interesting note: there was a Superwoman in 1943’s Action Comics #60:

That makes me think of that fantheory that Sue was actually way older than she was and pretended to be younger to hide the secret that Johnny was her son and not her young brother...born from an illict affair with Namor years before the FF were ever formed. I suppose if there was ever any iota of truth to that lol, only then would Sue calling herself the Invisible Girl make sense.

Wow, I had no idea there had been a Superwoman. Thanks for clarifying that. I'm surprised DC never tried to make her a prominent character or introduce a new Superwoman.

[Electricmastro]

That makes me think of that fantheory that Sue was actually way older than she was and pretended to be younger to hide the secret that Johnny was her son and not her young brother...born from an illict affair with Namor years before the FF were ever formed. I suppose if there was ever any iota of truth to that lol, only then would Sue calling herself the Invisible Girl make sense.

Wow, I had no idea there had been a Superwoman. Thanks for clarifying that. I'm surprised DC never tried to make her a prominent character or introduce a new Superwoman.

DC has since pretty much given the “Superwoman” name to the villain from the Crime Syndicate of America.

I really love that Byrne issue where Sue has that TV interview and she's flat out confronted by the fact that many fans feel she doesn't pull her weight and constantly gets captured and Sue is able to refute it all and prove her worth on the team. It was a good way to make sense of how she had been portrayed the past few decades without glossing over anything. That was one of the first FF issues I ever read so I could never see Sue as being anything less than that.

Even before then, she did heroic acts like saving Reed, Johnny, and Ben from dying of oxygen deprivation in Fantastic Four #5, and was given force fields to use for combat in Fantastic Four #22, but even then, it’s as if Stan and Jack were conflicted on how to present her, being courageously heroic at times and being a quirky ditz at other times.

[whitecrown]

DC has since pretty much given the “Superwoman” name to the villain from the Crime Syndicate of America.



Even before then, she did heroic acts like saving Reed, Johnny, and Ben from dying of oxygen deprivation in Fantastic Four #5, and was given force fields to use for combat in Fantastic Four #22, but even then, it’s as if Stan and Jack were conflicted on how to present her, being courageously heroic at times and being a quirky ditz at other times.

I didn't realize the name Superwoman is primarily associated with a villain in DC.

Yeah, I remember in that TV interview in FF #245, that's exactly what Sue brings up too, that even in captivity she did save the rest of the team from being suffocated to death. But frankly, out of all the Silver Age heroines (Sue, Jean, Janet, and Wanda), Sue tended to play the damsel in distress role the most. And even her force fields were introduced as a strictly passive power so that she didn't do much with them beyond shielding her teammates. I'm glad her power progressed over the years to something that could be used offensively as well as defensively.