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  1. #166
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Looking at Reed through the alternate dimensions, generally (nothing I'm saying is absolute for everything) Reeds without Sues have problems and the Reeds who have a supportive Sue who do considerably better. It's the main reason I maintain Doom picked Sue as a queen on Battleworld during Secret Wars.

    Sue is with Reed because she loves him. How much is her subconscious figuring she's keeping him from becoming an evil despot? I think there's some of that in there. She's extremely intelligent and has faced her inner feelings with Malice and Psycho Man. Her self-awareness is easily the greatest of the four. Sue's a helper/mother figure. But she could lead as we've seen in DeFalco's run. The tendency of Sue to be direct in an alpha sense isn't as strong as it is with Johnny or Ben. She HAS been direct and her directness was shown in Waid's mini.

    Can Sue be seen to be powerful married to Reed? I think so. It is tough when she's with the team, though.
    The thing is that her supportive side should only be one aspect to her personality, not all there is to it. Plus the character shouldn't exist to keep Reed in check, she should be her own person with wants and desires not related to Reed or the family. It's why I believe she needs something like a career, so that she gets the focus and development she needs and deserves. It would also be good for Reed's character, him having to take on more of the parenting responsibilities because Sue can no longer cover for him when he decides to spend days in the lab. It's a change in the dynamic that can help both characters grow and have their dynamic be less one-sided.
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  2. #167
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    The thing is that her supportive side should only be one aspect to her personality, not all there is to it. Plus the character shouldn't exist to keep Reed in check, she should be her own person with wants and desires not related to Reed or the family. It's why I believe she needs something like a career, so that she gets the focus and development she needs and deserves. It would also be good for Reed's character, him having to take on more of the parenting responsibilities because Sue can no longer cover for him when he decides to spend days in the lab. It's a change in the dynamic that can help both characters grow and have their dynamic be less one-sided.
    Fantastic Four feels like Groundhog Day quite a lot in recent decades.

    Johnny gets a bit more mature, then he becomes juvenile again..

    Ben shouts “It’s clobbering time” wades in, and gets overwhelmed.

    Franklin gets his full powers then reverts...

    Reed learns about the dangers of being a poor dad. Then promptly forgets them (This from Marvel’s top intellect!)

    The same villains constantly re-appear

    Can’t knock it too much, it sells a reasonable number of comics, and there have been some great runs..much more than vast majority of comics.

    But often feel that in the great run that started it all, Kirby and Lee kept moving the story forward...Johnny was obviously maturing, Ben had got over his resentment at his cruel fate, Sue and Reed got married, had kids.

    If that momentum had carried on, we’d be reading about the grandkids by now!

    For me, you’re right, Sue ought to be in stage of life now when she can step back from micro managing kids and doing other things. And a lot of other “cast members” ought to have moved onto other things as well.

    Marvel won’t do it. At some point brand management...milking existing characters...became at least as important as moving the story forward.

  3. #168

  4. #169
    Spectacular Member markhyperion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    What's your take then on Madame Hydra Sue shipped with Wolverine?
    D
    What is funny, is that I was looking on comicvine for Hyrda members out of covid boredom and saw this

    Screenshot_20200506-224831_Chrome.jpg

    Maybe reference its not OUR (616) Sue.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Marvel won’t do it. At some point brand management...milking existing characters...became at least as important as moving the story forward.
    All the franchises do this, FF isn't special in that regard.

  6. #171
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    It's mothers day in some places and on twitter I was reminded of this great moment between Sue and Johnny:







    The fact that she practically raised him doesn't get mentioned enough. Plus I'd love to see them just hang out and have interactions that aren't her nagging him about something he's done.
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  7. #172
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Speaking of Sue's motherhood...

    While a big Sue fan I have to say that her Motherhood is never interesting and does the same cliche things over and over again. Her interactions with her kids are very superficial especially when compared to Reed's.
    She never hangs out with them, argues with them, and we never see her get to know them. It's just expected that they have a good bond because that is what society expects of mothers so Sue doesn't have any real moments with the kids. But Reed, Ben, and Johnny do.
    It's why I always want her to have desires, friends, and goals outside of the family. Because frankly, her motherhood is only used as an excuse to limit her and it's increasingly more apparent as Reed gets to have all those things and it makes the character much more interesting. Sue as a mom should be written better and shouldn't be all there is to the character.
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  8. #173
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Speaking of Sue's motherhood...

    While a big Sue fan I have to say that her Motherhood is never interesting and does the same cliche things over and over again. Her interactions with her kids are very superficial especially when compared to Reed's.
    She never hangs out with them, argues with them, and we never see her get to know them. It's just expected that they have a good bond because that is what society expects of mothers so Sue doesn't have any real moments with the kids. But Reed, Ben, and Johnny do.
    It's why I always want her to have desires, friends, and goals outside of the family. Because frankly, her motherhood is only used as an excuse to limit her and it's increasingly more apparent as Reed gets to have all those things and it makes the character much more interesting. Sue as a mom should be written better and shouldn't be all there is to the character.
    Good points. A couple of Sue as mother moments I did like were Millar's introduction of super-smart Val and future Sue basically telling her to cut the crap. That's parenting and it showed signs that future Sue and her Val had enough of a relationship so F-Sue could tell a young Val that. The second moment was Sue's color change trick in Waid's mini. Sue and Val had time together.

    But both of these moments go against the "Show, don't tell" philosophy of writing. It's a shame that Sue's reputation as a maternal figure comes from her decades of mothering the emotionally stunted and often immature Reed, Ben, and Johnny. She need, as you excellently state, to do this with her own kids.

  9. #174
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markhyperion View Post
    D
    What is funny, is that I was looking on comicvine for Hyrda members out of covid boredom and saw this

    Screenshot_20200506-224831_Chrome.jpg

    Maybe reference its not OUR (616) Sue.
    Was Hawkeye II on that list too? Ultimate Kate Bishop was Miles Morales' girlfriend... until he found out she was HYDRA.
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  10. #175
    Spectacular Member Billy Maximoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Speaking of Sue's motherhood...

    While a big Sue fan I have to say that her Motherhood is never interesting and does the same cliche things over and over again. Her interactions with her kids are very superficial especially when compared to Reed's.
    She never hangs out with them, argues with them, and we never see her get to know them. It's just expected that they have a good bond because that is what society expects of mothers so Sue doesn't have any real moments with the kids. But Reed, Ben, and Johnny do.
    It's why I always want her to have desires, friends, and goals outside of the family. Because frankly, her motherhood is only used as an excuse to limit her and it's increasingly more apparent as Reed gets to have all those things and it makes the character much more interesting. Sue as a mom should be written better and shouldn't be all there is to the character.
    I agree it's especially noticeable in X-Men / FF that Sue doesn't really interact with her children when needed, especially in #3 where the FF finally found Franklin and Val on Doom's island and Sue didn't even interact with them at all.

  11. #176
    Spectacular Member markhyperion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Speaking of Sue's motherhood...

    While a big Sue fan I have to say that her Motherhood is never interesting and does the same cliche things over and over again. Her interactions with her kids are very superficial especially when compared to Reed's.
    She never hangs out with them, argues with them, and we never see her get to know them. It's just expected that they have a good bond because that is what society expects of mothers so Sue doesn't have any real moments with the kids. But Reed, Ben, and Johnny do.
    It's why I always want her to have desires, friends, and goals outside of the family. Because frankly, her motherhood is only used as an excuse to limit her and it's increasingly more apparent as Reed gets to have all those things and it makes the character much more interesting. Sue as a mom should be written better and shouldn't be all there is to the character.
    I notice this too. At least recently. Since I think Waids run she never really has a relationship we see with her kids, despite the fact that she's supposed to be this amazing Mother figure. Especially with Val. She had more intimacy with future Val from Claremonts run. It's almost specifically after baby Val was born. She had a lot of interaction that we saw with Franklin before Val.

    In Waid run, when Doom did his whole magic thing, she was with them more. Last time I can remember

  12. #177
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Maximoff View Post
    I agree it's especially noticeable in X-Men / FF that Sue doesn't really interact with her children when needed, especially in #3 where the FF finally found Franklin and Val on Doom's island and Sue didn't even interact with them at all.
    I believe it's a weakness of writer dealing primarily in superhero stories. The family parent to young child relationship is one that's relatively uncommon in this genre. Still, if one is writing the FF, it needs to be part of the book.

  13. #178
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Invisible Woman as she appeared in Civil War #4 (October, 2006). Art by Steve McNiven.


  14. #179
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Sue saving Johnny, Reed, and Ben (Fantastic Four #5, July 1962):

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 05-15-2020 at 12:54 PM.

  15. #180

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    This is my take on the popular fan cast.

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