Susan Storm-Richards: The Invisible Woman Appreciation 2020

[U.N. Owen]

Hard disagree. There are plenty of heroes just as powerful: Storm, Jean Grey, Thor, Hulk and many more. There is nothing wrong with how powerful Sue is and it being "unfair" makes no sense. Not every hero is the same in power and that is better for diversity of heroes. If everyone was the same power as Silver Surfer or Punisher then things would be dull.
It's also not "unfair" to their villains. Many of the FF's villains have stagnated since Lee/Kirby left and that's due to writers having no clue/Not bothering to update them. It's nothing to do with Sue's power.

Heck, look at Franklin - the literal God! Sue's fine in term of her power and I want to see more creative uses of her powers, especially her invisibility.

I would argue it is a little bit of both. The villains have definitely stagnated. Red Ghost and his Super Apes are so pathetic that a 4 year old Franklin whose powers were limited to astral projection and fortune telling beat him with ease.

At the same time, I see that the writers haven't expanded on Sue's character that much. They are still very much stuck in the shadow of Lee/Kirby. Instead of expanding her characterization, they try to stockpile feats to her to avoid making her look weak. At the same time, she's just "mom" when it comes to team dynamics. That's her whole character so far.

It's not to say she's some boring invincible hero like her son (though I will never call him a hero until he straight up apologizes to Alicia). She cannot withstand long term bombardment under her shields. She'll blackout from lack of air. Sound needs to come through in order for her to talk. Light for sight. I'm sure Karnak can use some kind of shatterpoint technique like he uses on Vision.

[Oberon]

I would argue it is a little bit of both. The villains have definitely stagnated. Red Ghost and his Super Apes are so pathetic that a 4 year old Franklin whose powers were limited to astral projection and fortune telling beat him with ease.

At the same time, I see that the writers haven't expanded on Sue's character that much. They are still very much stuck in the shadow of Lee/Kirby. Instead of expanding her characterization, they try to stockpile feats to her to avoid making her look weak. At the same time, she's just "mom" when it comes to team dynamics. That's her whole character so far.

It's not to say she's some boring invincible hero like her son (though I will never call him a hero until he straight up apologizes to Alicia). She cannot withstand long term bombardment under her shields. She'll blackout from lack of air. Sound needs to come through in order for her to talk. Light for sight. I'm sure Karnak can use some kind of shatterpoint technique like he uses on Vision.

Perhaps you address a core truth. Sue's character in her guest appearances more often plays up the other more interesting things or developments in said character. I'm not sure where I remember - many examples, but usually something like the Avengers and the cross-overs of severals back, the ones leading to Secret Wars 2, she was hardly a concerned mom. Of course when Hickman writes her there or in the FF title when he was on it, she is better portrayed.

[PwrdOn]

I don't think Sue is boring at all. Her characterization might be a bit more subtle, but frankly it's nice to have at least one prominent superheroine that isn't some sexy secret agent super genius omega telepath. When writers dip into that well too often of telling us that their creations are special and superlative in every way, but then show them to be rather ordinary and bland in the actual story, it just makes it hard to really get invested in them or take them seriously. And besides, I feel like Sue's main appeal is that we all pretty much know someone like her - she's the girl that everyone admired and looked up to and could be anything she wanted to be, and simply chose to focus on her family because that's what she cared about, and who can say that makes her less interesting than anyone else?

[Marvel Forever]

My beloved Frightful Four have not just stagnated, but have gone backwards in recent decades. They most definitely need a power boost!

[CaptCleghorn]

My beloved Frightful Four have not just stagnated, but have gone backwards in recent decades. They most definitely need a power boost!

This is so true. The Frightful Four not only hasn't advanced with the times, in some ways they've actually regressed and basically become jokes. Sandman, Medusa, and Thundra coming over to the good guys hasn't helped the evil FF in terms of being villainous threats. I'd add the Thinker and Puppet Master to Wizard and Trapster for a foursome that could possibly be a major threat as long as they use science and h=guile as opposed to pure physical power.

[Phoenixx9]

Sandman should return to the bad side. Titania should be an even better replacement for Thundra since she is way stronger. Wizard makes three. They need another good 4th, but not Paste-Pot-Pete Trapster. Someone else very powerful that could round out the evil foursome.

[Crimz]

I don't think Sue is boring at all. Her characterization might be a bit more subtle, but frankly it's nice to have at least one prominent superheroine that isn't some sexy secret agent super genius omega telepath. When writers dip into that well too often of telling us that their creations are special and superlative in every way, but then show them to be rather ordinary and bland in the actual story, it just makes it hard to really get invested in them or take them seriously. And besides, I feel like Sue's main appeal is that we all pretty much know someone like her - she's the girl that everyone admired and looked up to and could be anything she wanted to be, and simply chose to focus on her family because that's what she cared about, and who can say that makes her less interesting than anyone else?

My problem is that her personality is underdeveloped. She loves her family, but there should be more to the character just like with real people and just like the other members of her family. Reed also loves his family but that's not the only aspect to him.
What are Sue's likes, wants, fears, goals, sense of humor, hobbies? We know none of these things if they aren't in someway related to the family and her roles as a mother. It's only becoming more apparent how underdeveloped she is with the kids being older. They don't need her as much and writers can't fall back on he motherhood being her sole trait anymore. Oberon had a point in that this doesn't occur outside the FF. When she isn't with the team we more often get to see aspects of her personality not related to her motherhood. That should also happen within the FF book.
It's even asking for a lot considering the other members of the FF get to have this in varying degrees.

[CaptCleghorn]

My problem is that her personality is underdeveloped. She loves her family, but there should be more to the character just like with real people and just like the other members of her family. Reed also loves his family but that's not the only aspect to him.
What are Sue's likes, wants, fears, goals, sense of humor, hobbies? We know none of these things if they aren't in someway related to the family and her roles as a mother. It's only becoming more apparent how underdeveloped she is with the kids being older. They don't need her as much and writers can't fall back on he motherhood being her sole trait anymore. Oberon had a point in that this doesn't occur outside the FF. When she isn't with the team we more often get to see aspects of her personality not related to her motherhood. That should also happen within the FF book.
It's even asking for a lot considering the other members of the FF get to have this in varying degrees.

Much of this is the result of the FF's origin and historical placement. The FF, as a group is basically the Sea Devils, Cave Carson's crew, or Rip Hunter's Time Masters except with super-powers. In all three of those groups the scientist was the lean with three back-ups consisting of his brawny buddy, his girl-friend, and a kid often the girl's little brother. Marvel did a great job pushing Johnny and Ben but those two had breakout years in the nineteen sixties with Strange Tales and Sue was ... the GIRL. And despite John Byrne and a considerable power upgrade, Sue's main personality point is being a MILF. A powerful MILF, but not much more.

[JackDaw]

Much of this is the result of the FF's origin and historical placement. The FF, as a group is basically the Sea Devils, Cave Carson's crew, or Rip Hunter's Time Masters except with super-powers. In all three of those groups the scientist was the lean with three back-ups consisting of his brawny buddy, his girl-friend, and a kid often the girl's little brother. Marvel did a great job pushing Johnny and Ben but those two had breakout years in the nineteen sixties with Strange Tales and Sue was ... the GIRL. And despite John Byrne and a considerable power upgrade, Sue's main personality point is being a MILF. A powerful MILF, but not much more.

I’m not really convinced that any of the Fantastic Four characters have been any better developed in last 20 years than Sue. They have appeared in more comics other than FF itself that’s undeniable...but the entire team has been in “Groundhog Day” mode for a long, long time.

Ben’s the plucky loser who yells “Clobbering Time”, fights hard for 5 mins, loses..and Reed saves the day by going into lab for 5 minutes. Reed is brilliant at everything. Johnny is brash impetuous...and is madly in love..but moves onto some over love pretty quickly.

It’s all so different to the wonderful start to the series...when the team really did develop and grow. Effectively it’s just the Marvel comics way...certain characters have become so iconic that they have to be frozen in time.

[CaptCleghorn]

I’m not really convinced that any of the Fantastic Four characters have been any better developed in last 20 years than Sue. They have appeared in more comics other than FF itself that’s undeniable...but the entire team has been in “Groundhog Day” mode for a long, long time.

Ben’s the plucky loser who yells “Clobbering Time”, fights hard for 5 mins, loses..and Reed saves the day by going into lab for 5 minutes. Reed is brilliant at everything. Johnny is brash impetuous...and is madly in love..but moves onto some over love pretty quickly.

It’s all so different to the wonderful start to the series...when the team really did develop and grow. Effectively it’s just the Marvel comics way...certain characters have become so iconic that they have to be frozen in time.

I get this, and your point is well taken. I agree that Sue has probably gotten more in the last couple of decades than the other three, BUT she started by giving Ben, Johnny, and Reed a huge head start. The point I'm making and adjusting to account for your valid observation is that Sue has yet to catch up with the guys who seem to have stagnated, but with groups like the Illuminati, the Guardians, and the Avengers have given the boys a chance to grow when Sue is still Mom.

[PwrdOn]

My problem is that her personality is underdeveloped. She loves her family, but there should be more to the character just like with real people and just like the other members of her family. Reed also loves his family but that's not the only aspect to him.
What are Sue's likes, wants, fears, goals, sense of humor, hobbies? We know none of these things if they aren't in someway related to the family and her roles as a mother. It's only becoming more apparent how underdeveloped she is with the kids being older. They don't need her as much and writers can't fall back on he motherhood being her sole trait anymore. Oberon had a point in that this doesn't occur outside the FF. When she isn't with the team we more often get to see aspects of her personality not related to her motherhood. That should also happen within the FF book.
It's even asking for a lot considering the other members of the FF get to have this in varying degrees.

That really is just a problem with the generally lack of diversity among Marvel's writers. Regardless of which characters the book supposedly centers around, writers tend to gravitate toward those whom they can personally relate to, or at least those whom they feel comfortable finding a voice for. That's always been difficult for a character like Sue because there just aren't that many middle aged women working in the industry, and those that are generally want a more high profile assignment than being relegated to writing the "mom" character.

[Oberon]

Sandman should return to the bad side. Titania should be an even better replacement for Thundra since she is way stronger. Wizard makes three. They need another good 4th, but not Paste-Pot-Pete Trapster. Someone else very powerful that could round out the evil foursome.

Considering She-Hulk's current state, semi mindless, she would be the perfect replacement for a female strong person. Added bonus; they're fighting a former member!

[Marvel Forever]

Sandman should return to the bad side. Titania should be an even better replacement for Thundra since she is way stronger. Wizard makes three. They need another good 4th, but not Paste-Pot-Pete Trapster. Someone else very powerful that could round out the evil foursome.

Yes, I am all for Sandman returning and have been pushing Marvel to do such for years now. Titania is a good choice, but perhaps the Ultimate Universe Red Ghost might be even better? I personally prefer an evil Medusa from an alternate Universe who has a psychic power to go along with her deadly hair, that would force Sue to lower her force field, making it a much more even match!

[Marvel Forever]

Considering She-Hulk's current state, semi mindless, she would be the perfect replacement for a female strong person. Added bonus; they're fighting a former member!

Not a bad choice at all there, Oberon. I recall when the She Thing had mutated and was evil, that she appeared with the Frightful Four and almost destroyed Sue. If not for the Wizard's mistake of trying to choke the Torch and opening up a pocket of non-causality, She-Thing would have finished Sue off, as Sue's powers had been exhausted. (see FF Unlimited #5, one of my top 25 all-time Fantastic Four issues.)

[Phoenixx9]

Not a bad choice at all there, Oberon. I recall when the She Thing had mutated and was evil, that she appeared with the Frightful Four and almost destroyed Sue. If not for the Wizard's mistake of trying to choke the Torch and opening up a pocket of non-causality, She-Thing would have finished Sue off, as Sue's powers had been exhausted. (see FF Unlimited #5, one of my top 25 all-time Fantastic Four issues.)

Yes, I liked that fight too. I also liked the Monstrous She-Thing (if even for only a little bit of time). Sharon was ultra-powerful in that form.