Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2020

[ImperiusWrecked]

The Inhumans and Atlantis stuff is bothersome. Another byproduct of Marvel never really hammering out the world of Namor and their Atlantis mythos.

It's just bad writing to mash up these places and claim ties to Atlantis, each should be their own separate thing, Atlantis shouldn't have ties to anything and honestly I feel like the only person who even cared to do some world building into the pre cataclysm history was J.M. DeMatteis for the issues with Namor and Man-Thing. Anything else I disregard because Atlantis was just used for other characters and not Namor, like Avalon was Atlantis? Attilan was Atlantis? makes no sense and feels like a lazy mash up to justify them using Atlantis for their plot, it never added anything to Sub-Mariner lore, and I don't like there being any ties to Inhumans.

[Reviresco]

The Inhumans and Atlantis stuff is bothersome. Another byproduct of Marvel never really hammering out the world of Namor and their Atlantis mythos.

I find it a bit annoying, especially when it doesn't "fit" into what has been previously established. But it's more of a case of all the freaking retcons to boost something else.

It's just bad writing to mash up these places and claim ties to Atlantis, each should be their own separate thing, Atlantis shouldn't have ties to anything and honestly I feel like the only person who even cared to do some world building into the pre cataclysm history was J.M. DeMatteis for the issues with Namor and Man-Thing. Anything else I disregard because Atlantis was just used for other characters and not Namor, like Avalon was Atlantis? Attilan was Atlantis? makes no sense and feels like a lazy mash up to justify them using Atlantis for their plot, it never added anything to Sub-Mariner lore, and I don't like there being any ties to Inhumans.

Roy Thomas did some work, when he tied it into the REH stuff. It's why we got the Serpent Crown. There was also the Tales of Atlantis back up that was in the last few issues of Subby's silver / bronze age book.

I'm fine with Atlantis tying into other things, IF it fits and isn't all about boosting other characters.

[Reviresco]

I was wondering, in addition to Steve, and Jim who else would Namor consider an friend? I mean as an actual friend not just a "I kinda like you/respect you so we are cool" friend. I was reading Adam: Legend of the Blue Marvel #4 the other week and it mentions Namor and Adam being friends and like, that was the only comic I could even think of that says that about them unless I'm missing something? I really prefer characters building up friendships over the years and it being more organic than just "by the way we are friends"

That's because it's a massive retcon to fit Blue Marvel into Marvel's history. It's basically the same thing as Sentry being shoehorned into Marvel's history, except with less support / interest. It's the only comic where they actually have an interaction, IIRC, but it may have been mentioned elsewhere. IIRC, Blue Marvel was supposed to be upset at Squadron Supreme for murdering Namor and committing genocide against the Atlanteans in his appearance either that series or in the Hyperion series. I have no idea if he confronted T'challa in the Ultimates, as I didn't read that series.

To me, Namor doesn't have a lot of close friends especially close male friends, he has people he is friendly with aka "he will mostly respect their opinions and allow them to speak to him". The only people who actually make Namor laugh or he is less guarded around is Steve and Jim, they both have a lot of history with Namor that spans decades, and though they butt heads from time to time they still are friends.

.
.
.

I was thinking of compiling a list of characters Namor is actually friends with, off the top of my head I would put:

- Betty Dean
- Jim Hammond
- Steve Rogers
- Diane Arliss (I do think of her and Namor as friends even though they have not been on panel together for ages)
- Bucky and Toro

Who would you all add?

Again, I don't think Namor has many male friends. Hammond for sure. Bucky and Toro, perhaps. Steve ... well, lets just say they have a relationship. ;p Herc and Namor have an ... understanding, but they seem more antagonistic.

Diane Arliss Newell for sure, but I think that interferes in Namor and Stingray ever being really good friends. But Namor and Newell are enough friends that he'd never have done what Aaron had him doing, that's for sure.

What about Spitfire?

I would count Triton among his friends, Atlantis was considered a second home to him.

What about Marrina Smallwood?

Hmmm. I don't think I've ever seen Triton in Atlantis. But it would make a lot of sense. I don't think there are that many aquatic Inhumans at all.

Triton is a victim of retcon also. Originally, Triton met Namor in Subby 2. They've had a respect / relationship since then of some sort, though we don't see much interaction on panel. He's definitely served as a go between Namor and the FF, as well as a herald of sorts to the surface world. He announced Namor's marriage to Lady Dorma, IIRC, to the surface world.

Then they retconned it in the Jenkins / Jae Lee Inhumans book where Triton was an old geezer who knew Namor's "parents" and was sort of a defacto uncle???

I always feel Marrina as leaning towards more romantic than friendship relationship, like with Betty, she and Namor were friends and there was a romantic stuff too but she was Namor's first surface world friend. Idk, like I would say Dorma and Marrina were more romantic leaning than friendship leaning. But I agree with Triton being added to the list.

I would also add Caleb & Carrie Alexander.

Are Caleb and Carrie alive?

I know she dumped Namor, cause she didn't want to be fridged.

Namor's friend list:

- Betty Dean
- Jim Hammond
- Steve Rogers
- Bucky Barnes
- Toro Raymond
- Triton
- Carrie Alexander
- Caleb Alexander
- Vashti

Added Vashti because he definitely is Namor's friend.

Any one else wish to add?

Vashti has a special relationship with Namor. There's definitely love there. He sort of reminds me of Batman's Alfred. He's sort of a father figure ... but he works for Namor.

[Phoenixx9]

What about Stingray, Walter Newall? Didn't he become a friend of Namor?

Also, Tamara Rahn.

[K7P5V]

Are Caleb and Carrie alive?

I know she dumped Namor, cause she didn't want to be fridged.

IIRC, Desmond Marrs personally took out Caleb.

Sadly, I haven't been keeping up with Carrie.

Hopefully, this link might be of help (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/a...ercarriesm.htm)

[Spiderfang]

edit.............................................. .......................

[ImperiusWrecked]

What about Stingray, Walter Newall? Didn't he become a friend of Namor?

Also, Tamara Rahn.

I thought that he and Walter were kinda friends not a deep friendship or anything but like Namor had respect for Walter over time? I always felt he and Diane were closer friends, and it's something I noticed with Namor is that most of his close friendships are with women, the exception being the Invaders. However the Defenders to me feels more like co workers, the Avengers and X-Men were also just acquaintances.

As for Tamara iirc the last we saw of her she was in a relationship with Tiger Shark in the 90s series? I can't recall what happened to her after that but I never felt like she and Namor were friends. Possible one time lovers maybe.

[ImperiusWrecked]

That's because it's a massive retcon to fit Blue Marvel into Marvel's history. It's basically the same thing as Sentry being shoehorned into Marvel's history, except with less support / interest. It's the only comic where they actually have an interaction, IIRC, but it may have been mentioned elsewhere. IIRC, Blue Marvel was supposed to be upset at Squadron Supreme for murdering Namor and committing genocide against the Atlanteans in his appearance either that series or in the Hyperion series. I have no idea if he confronted T'challa in the Ultimates, as I didn't read that series.





Again, I don't think Namor has male friends. Hammond for sure. Bucky and Toro, perhaps. Steve ... well, lets just say they have a relationship. ;p Herc and Namor have an ... understanding, but they seem more antagonistic.

Diane Arliss Newell for sure, but I think that interferes in Namor and Stingray ever being really good friends. But Namor and Newell are enough friends that he'd never have done what Aaron had him doing, that's for sure.

What about Spitfire?






Hmmm. I don't think I've ever seen Triton in Atlantis. But it would make a lot of sense. I don't think there are that many aquatic Inhumans at all.

Triton is a victim of retcon also. Originally, Triton met Namor in Subby 2. They've had a respect / relationship since then of some sort, though we don't see much interaction on panel. He's definitely served as a go between Namor and the FF, as well as a herald of sorts to the surface world. He announced Namor's marriage to Lady Dorma, IIRC, to the surface world.

Then they retconned it in the Jenkins / Jae Lee Inhumans book where Triton was an old geezer who knew Namor's "parents" and was sort of a defacto uncle???







Are Caleb and Carrie alive?

I know she dumped Namor, cause she didn't want to be fridged.




Vashti has a special relationship with Namor. There's definitely love there. He sort of reminds me of Batman's Alfred. He's sort of a father figure ... but he works for Namor.

Carrie was smart but yeah even she could see the writing on the wall when it comes to lasting romantic relationships and Namor (aka Marvel wont let him have one) but I'm not sure about Spitfire, I mean I see the Invaders as a kind of Family that came together during a rough time and made lasting bonds, so basically Namor is protective of them but honestly the only one he really goes out of his way to find time for/include in friendship is Jim imo. But thanks for letting me know about Blue Marvel, I haven't read too much about him but he did show up in the current Doom series.

[Phoenixx9]

I thought that he and Walter were kinda friends not a deep friendship or anything but like Namor had respect for Walter over time? I always felt he and Diane were closer friends, and it's something I noticed with Namor is that most of his close friendships are with women, the exception being the Invaders. However the Defenders to me feels more like co workers, the Avengers and X-Men were also just acquaintances.

As for Tamara iirc the last we saw of her she was in a relationship with Tiger Shark in the 90s series? I can't recall what happened to her after that but I never felt like she and Namor were friends. Possible one time lovers maybe.

Hhmmmn. I didn't know about the '90's Tamara thing with Tiger Shark.

But I did thnk Namor and Walter were friends and that Walter would help Namor, if needed.

I can see the Co-Workers thing with the Defenders, because, well, Namor did not stick around long enough to create close bonds with Val or Nighthawk, and he barely knew Red Guardian and Hellcat.

[Dermie]

As for Tamara iirc the last we saw of her she was in a relationship with Tiger Shark in the 90s series? I can't recall what happened to her after that but I never felt like she and Namor were friends. Possible one time lovers maybe.

Tamara was last seen in NEW THUNDERBOLTS, as Namor's ally infiltrating the Atlantean terrorist group led by Llyron and his Fathom Five. I agree that they were likely lovers briefly at some point, but they were friendly enough to still be allies at this point.

[Dermie]

Again, I don't think Namor has many male friends. Hammond for sure. Bucky and Toro, perhaps. Steve ... well, lets just say they have a relationship. ;p Herc and Namor have an ... understanding, but they seem more antagonistic.

Diane Arliss Newell for sure, but I think that interferes in Namor and Stingray ever being really good friends. But Namor and Newell are enough friends that he'd never have done what Aaron had him doing, that's for sure.

Not to defend Aaron's use of Namor...but Namor and Jim Hammond are close enough friends that he should never have done to Jim what he did in the last INVADERS series either. I think Namor's brutal assault of Stingray fits within the range of out of character behaviour that has been justified by his various mental tamperings in recent stories.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Not to defend Aaron's use of Namor...but Namor and Jim Hammond are close enough friends that he should never have done to Jim what he did in the last INVADERS series either. I think Namor's brutal assault of Stingray fits within the range of out of character behaviour that has been justified by his various mental tamperings in recent stories.

Namor is DEFINITELY OOC when it comes to both of these instance but the thing is, everyone just assumed he would do such things without question. If Aaron had Steve questioning what was going on with Namor or just about any of the Avengers whom had worked with Namor in the past, just even a throw away: Namor's been acting weird, what's up with his eyes? etc. then it would like readers who don't know Namor know something else is going on. Clues like that are important to characters. However I feel like anyone these days who gets into Namor only knows him from the Hickman Avengers when he was with Thanos's Cabal or Namor vs Black Panther stuff. And why is Namor and T'challa still feuding when he met up with Namor in Avengers? I thought they would be on even ground now since Shuri ordered innocent Atlanteans killed in retaliation for Namor's attack when he was possessed with the Phoenix. She didn't have the excuse of being possessed. I'm just salty about how often I see Namor used as BP's villain all for an ill conceived event that happened almost a decade ago.

[ImperiusWrecked]

MARVEL'S SNAPSHOTS: SUB-MARINER preview is here! Taken from here.

[Reviresco]

MARVEL'S SNAPSHOTS: SUB-MARINER preview is here! Taken from here.

OMG!!!

So much goodness!

Betty Dean!

[ImperiusWrecked]

Avengers #32 previews are up here!