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  1. #76
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Namor is totally the definition of an anti-hero, but I wouldn't have so much of an issue with Namor being a villain if writers actually committed to it. So many writers want to use the "crazy angry sea king" trope when it comes to Namor or they use his mental health issues (I think Namor does not have Bipolar Disorder but rather has Borderline Personality Disorder*) or possession, or mental control etc. to explain why Namor went to the "Dark Side" they do this so they can use him and then say "OH but Namor wasn't really evil/bad! He was just *insert whatever excuse they want here*.

    But if a writer went and wrote out why Namor is doing these things, like Hickman did with the New Avengers, and show that Namor isn't a bad guy but he does whatever his internal moral compass decides must be done in order to save or protect those under his charge then that makes for a much more interesting read. Aaron almost had it with him introducing Namor as someone who is fed up and done with the human justice system but he botched it so badly and shows that he doesn't even want to take the time to show things from Namor's POV. Instead he condemns Namor for daring to go against the Avengers or the humans even though Namor is RIGHT. Namor has a personal reason why he is so angry and why he "tore a trench in the oceans floor due to his rage" but rather than letting Namor go and deliver his justice he has Namor beating up his friend, aligning himself with villains, and the Avengers "winning" in their confrontation with him. This is what I mean when I say "If you want Namor to be a villain to the surface people then you have to commit to it" you have to show why he is doing these things, you have to let him go as far as his character can go, you have to show him realizing the mistakes he made along the way instead of (as Zdarsky did in Invaders) preaching to Namor why he is wrong, and you have to give Namor his agency let him make the choices, not react to the choices others make, let him find the solution and follow through with the ending.

    I'm going to say that while Zdarsky had a good concept he did not deliver on the ending at all, the last few issues have Namor acting erratically, he first says "it's Machan's fault but I will take the responsibility for it/we are the same person it was my plan too" then "Why should I stop Machan? I wash my hands of this" with Steve then preaching why Namor needs to get his ass in gear and then in the last issue Namor is blaming everyone instead of himself? Which prompts Jim to tell Namor to shut up. So this is what I really disliked because anything I've ever read about Namor I always see him on the front lines, I see him taking the guilt upon his own shoulders, I see him taking action. Namor would not let someone else fight his battles for him. (Another thing I feel Hickman got wrong was Namor telling the Black Order to attack Wakanda rather than him doing it himself to avenge his people, but then Namor was about to lose what was left of his people as well if he didn't lie)

    As others have said Namor is a flawed character but that's just what makes him so relatable because humans are flawed and we make mistakes too.

    * I really think that Bipolar Disorder was a way for Bryne to just wipe the slate clean and blame any past misdeeds/villainy on that, but I personally feel that if we were to diagnose Namor with something then Namor has Borderline Personality Disorder. Namorís characters shares alot of traits with BPD, but also factoring in his war flashbacks/PTSD effects him as well, some traits of BPD are:

    - A pattern of unstable intense relationships, such as idealizing someone one moment and then suddenly believing the person doesnít care enough or is cruel (see: namor hounding susan storm for years, idolizing her, but it wasnít actually a relationship)
    - Rapid changes in self-identity and self-image that include shifting goals and values
    - Periods of stress-related paranoia and loss of contact with reality, lasting from a few minutes to a few hours
    - Impulsive and risky behavior
    - Wide mood swings lasting from a few hours to a few days, which can include intense happiness, irritability, shame or anxiety
    - Ongoing feelings of emptiness
    - Inappropriate, intense anger, such as frequently losing your temper, being sarcastic or bitter, or having physical fights
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  2. #77
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    From Alter Ego #20 (January 2003, TwoMorrows Publishing). Art by Al Milgrom.

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 01-08-2020 at 07:15 PM.

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    From Alter Ego #20 (January 2003, TwoMorrows Publishing). Art by Al Milgrom.

    I have seen one or two pics of Whizzer with high-hat wings, but not this one. Also never saw a Miss America pic look like this, far from the Madeline Joyce image which I am familiar.

  4. #79
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    From Alter Ego #20 (January 2003, TwoMorrows Publishing). Art by Al Milgrom.

    I have a couple of Tomorrows magazines featuring Bill Everett and the Sub-mariner and this is definitely in my must haves list since it details the creation of the Invaders by Roy Thomas, helps that he is the editor of Alter Ego too.

  5. #80
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Here's my latest 3D Namor image, since Marvel doesn't wants to show a rematch as it should happen between Namor and Hyperion here's me showing how it should go:

    Namor tackles Hyperion in mid air. " Lets see how you fare against Namor when you cannot use your eyeblasts!"


    f42e60e6c0e479a8507bea7490b9d0c6.jpg
    Last edited by Thor-El; 01-08-2020 at 08:40 PM.

  6. #81
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    Here's my latest 3D Namor image, since Marvel doesn't wants to show a rematch as it should happen between Namor and Hyperion here's me showing how it should go:

    Namor tackles Hyperion in mid air. " Lets see how you fare against Namor when you cannot use your eyeblasts!"
    I see you are back to creating some awesome Namor art!


    And thanks for highlighting the one ability that so many modern writers seem to forget. Namor can FLY. There's so many of these fights that Namor should get the jump on, or even end, by simply flying.
    Last edited by Reviresco; 01-08-2020 at 10:57 PM.
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  7. #82
    Astonishing Member From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I'm so glad to hear someone else say this. One of my favorite things about Namor is a he is a flawed character and HOW he deals with that. It's why I'm not fond of Byrne's blood imbalance theory, or Zdarsky's inserted possession. To me, one of the interesting things about the character is seeing how Namor deals with and owns his actions. Yes, he has a lot of outside conflicts, but the the interior conflicts, the noble vs the savage, Atlantean vs surface breather, etc., is what make Namor so relatable and unique in the MU.

    Though, I would argue that Namor treads the line between anti-hero and villain at times. He certainly isn't above working with some villains if it helps him protect his people.


    Much like AvX set up Namor for Hickman, I think Namor was placed in a vulnerable position by his mini-series for Stern. And he did some wonderful things with it.
    Yeah, he was technically a hero during his Avengers time but even then Namor would veer towards doing some sketchy things (well sketchy by Avengers standards) and get dirty and they would have to reel them in but I actually remember he convinced them once or twice with his ideas. I've read quite a bit of Byrnes Namor back then and found it hit and miss. I remember one of his issues where Namor is put on trial and the Avengers got on the stand and defended him. Cap seemed to be his biggest supporter and he seemed to generally care for Namor and it wasn't to do with Avengers reputation and seemed to realize Namor had real issues to deal with and work through and wasn't just a hothead. Cap was almost paternal, funny, considering they are not that far apart in age.

  8. #83
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    Yeah, he was technically a hero during his Avengers time but even then Namor would veer towards doing some sketchy things (well sketchy by Avengers standards) and get dirty and they would have to reel them in but I actually remember he convinced them once or twice with his ideas. I've read quite a bit of Byrnes Namor back then and found it hit and miss. I remember one of his issues where Namor is put on trial and the Avengers got on the stand and defended him. Cap seemed to be his biggest supporter and he seemed to generally care for Namor and it wasn't to do with Avengers reputation and seemed to realize Namor had real issues to deal with and work through and wasn't just a hothead. Cap was almost paternal, funny, considering they are not that far apart in age.
    Yes, I think most of his Stern Avengers time, Namor would be regarded as a hero. His interactions with Hercules may not have exactly been heroic, in the modern sense, but appropriately, fits the Greek classic heroic mode -- not to mention highly entertaining. I really need to re-read the Stern run to speak on the the sketchier episodes you mentioned.

    But I was speaking more of his earliest Silver Age appearances, like FF and Avengers, before he got his own book. As I often say, sometimes Namor doesn't come across as a hero, because he's an Atlantean hero, not a surface world hero -- which often brings him into conflict with other heroes. Arguably, some of his actions in FF 4, his first Silver Age appearances fall in that category. Other actions in that comic fall into the anti-hero role. His team up with Doom definitely walks the line between anti-hero and villain, IMO, because villains' actions are more selfishly motivated.

    Once Namor got his own book, however, Marvel moved Namor more firmly into the hero slot.
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  9. #84
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    The amazing Fred Ian did another Namor sketch card for a Marvel's 80th Anniversary deck.




    Abe, he's French, and I think in Paris. If you catch him at Comic cons or gallery shows, tell him we LOVE his Namor!
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  10. #85
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    From Alter Ego #20 (January 2003, TwoMorrows Publishing). Art by Al Milgrom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I have seen one or two pics of Whizzer with high-hat wings, but not this one. Also never saw a Miss America pic look like this, far from the Madeline Joyce image which I am familiar.
    Really? It's pretty close to what I remember ... except for when she appeared in that Avengers storyline which made her and Whizzer the parents of Wanda and Piertro. The ever changing origin / history of the Maximoff siblings.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El View Post
    I have a couple of Tomorrows magazines featuring Bill Everett and the Sub-mariner and this is definitely in my must haves list since it details the creation of the Invaders by Roy Thomas, helps that he is the editor of Alter Ego too.
    I love those Two Morrows magazines. If they weren't so pricey, I might even subscribe. And yes, there's several issues with articles about Namor, Bill Everett, the Golden Age heroes, etc. I think they are available cheaper digitally, IIRC, though. Keep meaning to buy some that way.
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  11. #86
    Mighty Member Thor-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I see you are back to creating some awesome Namor art!


    And thanks for highlighting the one ability that so many modern writers seem to forget. Namor can FLY. There's so many of these fights that Namor should get the jump on, or even end, by simply flying.

    Thanks Rev, yes even in the last Invaders series I felt his flight power wasn't used enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    The amazing Fred Ian did another Namor sketch card for a Marvel's 80th Anniversary deck.


    So awesome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I love those Two Morrows magazines. If they weren't so pricey, I might even subscribe. And yes, there's several issues with articles about Namor, Bill Everett, the Golden Age heroes, etc. I think they are available cheaper digitally, IIRC, though. Keep meaning to buy some that way.
    I got issue 20 yesterday. That's the way to get them, all I own are digital, plus it makes it easier if you want to share something online. Same thing with comics although those you may want to get physically to be able to sell them in the future. I bought all the last Invaders series physically, they all had a digital code that sadly expired before I could get the digital copies. Gotta be more careful next time.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Really? It's pretty close to what I remember ... except for when she appeared in that Avengers storyline which made her and Whizzer the parents of Wanda and Piertro. The ever changing origin / history of the Maximoff siblings.
    Yes indeed. I have always seen Maddie with Brown or Auburn (her true color) hair, never black. Also, she was always drawn with a beautiful face, and albeit while slightly different from one artist to another, none looked like above. If I saw that face without the costume, I would have no idea who it was supposed to represent.

  13. #88
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    The amazing Fred Ian did another Namor sketch card for a Marvel's 80th Anniversary deck.




    Abe, he's French, and I think in Paris. If you catch him at Comic cons or gallery shows, tell him we LOVE his Namor!
    Oh this is gorgeous!!!
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  14. #89
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    A fan on Twitter made this Namor MCU poster. link

    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  15. #90
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    A fan on Twitter made this Namor MCU poster. link

    I saw that on instagram. Looks amazing! The artist is John Gallagher, I believe, and he also did a gorgeous Namor piece before -- and I discovered he's selling prints of it! Will be purchasing ASAP.


    1681d606e8a5f510c4f7a13fc25d9155--marvel-characters-marvel-heroes.jpg
    Last edited by Reviresco; 01-10-2020 at 01:03 PM.
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