Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2020

[Thor-El]

Good to see you, Oberon!

I admit, part of my disappointment with Battle for the Serpent Crown is I had such high hopes for it. Saladin Ahmed had expressed interest / admiration for Namor on twitter. He appeared to have even read some of the Golden Age stuff. He created a fun alternate universe Namor for his Exiles run. And he won an Eisner for his Black Bolt series. Plus, the Serpent Crown IS an Atlantean / Lemurian artifact. It's first appearance and it's origin / set up was in Subby's book.

So, I was expecting an issue packed with cool Atlantean stuff and some high quality writing with Namor. Instead, Namor barely shows up, he doesn't really sound like Namor, and he immediately gets jobbed physically, mentally, and culturally by air breathers, IN his own element. The fact that Namor is one of the few people who has repeatedly resisted the mind control powers of the Serpent Crown is never mentioned. The fact that the Crown was used against Namor in Invaders recently, and wouldn't just be laying around in an open cave guarded by only two Atlaneans, is ignored.

I read the previous issue to see if the writing was as superhero team-up pedestrian, and it was. Though, of course, T'challa and the Wakandans didn't get jobbed.

I am SO tired of any old airbreather just wandering into Atlantis, jobbing the Atlaneans and Namor while spying, stealing, murdering, and generally trashing the place -- all with zero consequences. I'm SO tired of other characters / franchises absconding / appropriating Atlantean tech or magic or history, while OG gets kicked to the side and gets NO development whatsoever.

Yes. Annoyed am I. ;p

Though, again, the art by Luke Ross was pretty.

Couldn't have said it better. And yes Luke Ross does a great job with the artwork but for each one of the things you have numbered I was disappointed. I called it out since I saw the cover, I knew Namor was going to get jobbed. And comics have had these inconsistencies with character personalities and power levels since the late 90's and every decade it seems to get worst. I liked when Namor was given credit for the formula that turns a human into an Atlantean, it was nice to see Namor's intellect get some shout out and to see those abilities so important to Bill Everett were being promoted at the beginning of the story which made me feel hopeful for a minute.

[Reviresco]

Couldn't have said it better. And yes Luke Ross does a great job with the artwork but for each one of the things you have numbered I was disappointed. I called it out since I saw the cover, I knew Namor was going to get jobbed. And comics have had these inconsistencies with character personalities and power levels since the late 90's and every decade it seems to get worst.

Yes, you did. I was apprehensive when I saw the cover, but hoped for better from Ahmed.

And of course, it's harder to be consistent when the character doesn't have his own book. That said, it's pretty much part of his power set that he's at his best and should be the strongest superhero when he's underwater.

I liked when Namor was given credit for the formula that turns a human into an Atlantean, it was nice to see Namor's intellect get some shout out and to see those abilities so important to Bill Everett were being promoted at the beginning of the story which made me feel hopeful for a minute.

That was unusual for modern writers (who understandably don't read the Golden Age stuff and are unfamiliar with Namor's Flying Blitz Buggy!) -- but then it's negated by the fact that the Wakandans as a matter of course, had the formula. Seriously? Can you imagine the screaming if Namor and the Atlanteans as a matter of course, had the stuff T'challa invented?

I also didn't care for airbreathers knowing the location of everything in Atlantis. Or that there's repercussions for invading Atlantean air space. If the location of Atlantis is known, there needs to be a serious Bermuda Triangle effect sitting on top of it.

[Reviresco]

Something I've been thinking a bit about lately. IF Marvel woke up today and realized how great a character Namor was and gave him his own book ... do you see both Namora and Namorita having a role? If so, what?

[Thor-El]

And of course, it's harder to be consistent when the character doesn't have his own book. That said, it's pretty much part of his power set that he's at his best and should be the strongest superhero when he's underwater.

Namor had some horrible inconsistencies with power levels during the golden age, one story he was throwing cars at policeman and having bullets ricochet his chest and then in another story he is stabbed with a knife and bled into unconsciousness. Although to be fair the issue where he is stabbed I don't think was written by Everett. But Stan Lee took care of keeping everything neat and consistent for years and all the other editos who inherited the editor in chief mantle like Archie Goodwin, Roy Thomas and Jim Shooter continued making a great job. I think it wasn't until Harras & Quesada that you started seeing Wolverine & the Punisher and other darlings of the decade crossing power level boundaries and jobbing bigger guns, something you never saw before. Today unless you get a writer like Kurt Busiek who knows a lot about Marvel's history you won't get anything of the sort. No one will tell writers you cannot do this or that with this character, it is expected to get the favorite of the month or the star of the story to cross every line in a free for all with full disregard to continuity, character power levels and characterization. Hulk is either a joke or terrifying powerful depending on the writer, same thing with Thor and Namor. And Thor's hammer is just stupid how many people are wielding it these days, even in the MCU its Cap with Mjolnir all the rave, there is even a statue of him wielding the hammer.

Something I've been thinking a bit about lately. IF Marvel woke up today and realized how great a character Namor was and gave him his own book ... do you see both Namora and Namorita having a role? If so, what?

So much they could do with them right now, specially with the danger of glaciers melting in the earth poles, climate change, pollution, corporate greed, etc. Such a wealth of history to tackle within those old comics, and both characters as the champion of the ocean and defenders of the planet using science as their guide watching over earth’s climate and its overall health. We just need someone bright that knows the history of these characters and can syphon all that into interesting, compelling creative stories.

[Oberon]

Well, I would agree it is not pleasing to see Namor handled this way.

It seems, he is only a plot device, we go over this all the time. Ka-zar can swim to Atlantis in another recent story?

Well that is disappointing. My guess is, they feel anything that might make Namor look better, would invoke the comparisons to Aquaman, which is pretty hot right now. Namor deserved that.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Good to see you, Oberon!

I admit, part of my disappointment with Battle for the Serpent Crown is I had such high hopes for it. Saladin Ahmed had expressed interest / admiration for Namor on twitter. He appeared to have even read some of the Golden Age stuff. He created a fun alternate universe Namor for his Exiles run. And he won an Eisner for his Black Bolt series. Plus, the Serpent Crown IS an Atlantean / Lemurian artifact. It's first appearance and it's origin / set up was in Subby's book.

So, I was expecting an issue packed with cool Atlantean stuff and some high quality writing with Namor. Instead, Namor barely shows up, he doesn't really sound like Namor, and he immediately gets jobbed physically, mentally, and culturally by air breathers, IN his own element. The fact that Namor is one of the few people who has repeatedly resisted the mind control powers of the Serpent Crown is never mentioned. The fact that the Crown was used against Namor in Invaders recently, and wouldn't just be laying around in an open cave guarded by only two Atlaneans, is ignored.

I read the previous issue to see if the writing was as superhero team-up pedestrian, and it was. Though, of course, T'challa and the Wakandans didn't get jobbed.

I am SO tired of any old airbreather just wandering into Atlantis, jobbing the Atlaneans and Namor while spying, stealing, murdering, and generally trashing the place -- all with zero consequences. I'm SO tired of other characters / franchises absconding / appropriating Atlantean tech or magic or history, while OG gets kicked to the side and gets NO development whatsoever.

Yes. Annoyed am I. ;p

Though, again, the art by Luke Ross was pretty.

I went in low hopes since the series so far to me seemed more like a "this month we are guest starring "X" character" than anything else. I liked the art alot though! I do like Ahmed as a writer but I think this series limited him in what he could do with Namor, however I agree about how Namor should be able to have some kind of resistance to the serpent crown because he has dealt with it before, and another thing that annoyed me was how the Wakandains had a water breathing compound that Namor had created??? Why would Namor want to make something that allows surfacers to breath underwater and why would the Wakandians have it? I'm so tired of Marvel constantly needing to mention that the relations between Atlantis and Wakanda "are tense" and pushing the Atlantis vs Wakanda stuff >:/

Something I've been thinking a bit about lately. IF Marvel woke up today and realized how great a character Namor was and gave him his own book ... do you see both Namora and Namorita having a role? If so, what?

I think Namora should stay with the Agents of Atlas but also have responsibilities in Atlantis; now I don't want co rulers for the throne but as a princess I feel Namora should be a Regent of some other city. The ocean is large and there should be other cities out there, they may not be as grand as Atlantis but still impressive. Namora could show up in Atlantis to visit Namor and Nita, and attend important court functions and other Atlantean events.

Nita should have time with the New Warriors but she should be based in Atlantis anytime she isn't with her team. I want to have the Namor and Nita cousin bond back again, with Namor as an older brother to Nita. Basically I want there to be more court drama, and maybe Namor and Nita go on a adventure to find out more about the past of Atlantis or trying to stop a new threat to their people. So I want more Nita than I do Namora.

Rev is back!!! Does the Charlie Brown happy dance!


Just read Battle for the Serpent Crown. I'll just say for now that some of my fears for this issue were confirmed. I hope Namor does shows up the next issue, if not then this appearance was really terrible and shows how disposable the character is for new Marvel writers.

And so proud to be the owner of a couple classic Namor statues. Sharing a couple pictures showing the Marvel milestone and Hard Hero Namor statues. As far as Namor classic statues is concerned, IMO these two statues are the best. They display Namor in his classic style with a rounded not triangular face and a good musculature, very 60s Marvel cartoon style (Gene Colan / John Buscema Silver Age Tales to Astonish/Sub-mariner #1) which to me will always be my Namor. I also own the Bowen mini bust which has also a more rounded head than his more triangular head full statue.

Attachment 99884
Attachment 99883

Those are amazing!!! Love your collection Thor-El

[Thirteen]

It appears there is no new stuff with Namor for the November solicits.

He might appear on the last page of the Avengers issue for that month, since the Phoenix is allegedly arriving. But to be honest, I have zero hopes anything good will come out of this story line for Namor. With Cap, She-Hulk and Black Panther already named as getting the Phoenix Force, I think there's nothing but more awfulness in Namor's future. At least we'll get some pretty art out of it.



And then there's is this cover.



CAPTAIN MARVEL #23
KELLY THOMPSON (W) • LEE GARBETT (A) • Cover by JORGE MOLINA
VARIANT COVER BY Russell Dauterman
MEET THE VILLAIN OF THE CENTURY!
The future is here — and haunting Captain Marvel! New York City is in chaos, and all her strongest allies are gone. But the enemy has only grown stronger with time. The child of [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] makes Carol Danvers' life a living hell…and you're gonna love every second of it.


Who could REDACTED be? uhn huhn
Maybe this will help.

So I suppose the whole "Human/Atlantean hybrids are sterile" thing got thrown out the window? It was the pillar of the whole Namorita is a clone of her "mother" Namora story during the Byrne era.

[Thor-El]

I went in low hopes since the series so far to me seemed more like a "this month we are guest starring "X" character" than anything else. I liked the art alot though! I do like Ahmed as a writer but I think this series limited him in what he could do with Namor, however I agree about how Namor should be able to have some kind of resistance to the serpent crown because he has dealt with it before, and another thing that annoyed me was how the Wakandains had a water breathing compound that Namor had created??? Why would Namor want to make something that allows surfacers to breath underwater and why would the Wakandians have it? I'm so tired of Marvel constantly needing to mention that the relations between Atlantis and Wakanda "are tense" and pushing the Atlantis vs Wakanda stuff >:/



I think Namora should stay with the Agents of Atlas but also have responsibilities in Atlantis; now I don't want co rulers for the throne but as a princess I feel Namora should be a Regent of some other city. The ocean is large and there should be other cities out there, they may not be as grand as Atlantis but still impressive. Namora could show up in Atlantis to visit Namor and Nita, and attend important court functions and other Atlantean events.

Nita should have time with the New Warriors but she should be based in Atlantis anytime she isn't with her team. I want to have the Namor and Nita cousin bond back again, with Namor as an older brother to Nita. Basically I want there to be more court drama, and maybe Namor and Nita go on a adventure to find out more about the past of Atlantis or trying to stop a new threat to their people. So I want more Nita than I do Namora.

I like all that you propose. I gotta say I find Namora intriguing because to me she is a new character that I still haven't read much about but she is also an original character from the golden age so she has that pedigree that to me is so important vs Wave, Amadeos Cho and all the new characters that for some reason I cannot connect much with maybe because I think they detract from my real favorites like Hercules or Namor when writers tend to focus so much more on them and sometimes have the original heroes take a back seat in the new stories they develop.

Having Namora with the Agents of Atlas and regent of an important Atlantean city is a great idea. It keeps the character importance in Atlantis while giving her a superhero association separate from Namor. Doesn't takes away that Namor and her might team up from time to time and even Namor joining the Atlas on certain adventures as a guest star. But like you my connection is more with Nita because she was the one I would see as Namor sidekick when I was a kid in the comics. Most memorable the adventure where she meets Wundarr the Aquarian in Marvel Two in One.

Those are amazing!!! Love your collection Thor-El

Thank you. I knew you guys would like it.

[Oberon]

I have to admit the idea is rather convenient. But I tend to hate some retcons. Where was that exactly?

[ImperiusWrecked]

I like all that you propose. I gotta say I find Namora intriguing because to me she is a new character that I still haven't read much about but she is also an original character from the golden age so she has that pedigree that to me is so important vs Wave, Amadeos Cho and all the new characters that for some reason I cannot connect much with maybe because I think they detract from my real favorites like Hercules or Namor when writers tend to focus so much more on them and sometimes have the original heroes take a back seat in the new stories they develop.

Having Namora with the Agents of Atlas and regent of an important Atlantean city is a great idea. It keeps the character importance in Atlantis while giving her a superhero association separate from Namor. Doesn't takes away that Namor and her might team up from time to time and even Namor joining the Atlas on certain adventures as a guest star. But like you my connection is more with Nita because she was the one I would see as Namor sidekick when I was a kid in the comics. Most memorable the adventure where she meets Wundarr the Aquarian in Marvel Two in One.

Oh I remember Wundarr, I think he just fades out of comics? I liked how protective Nita was of him.

So I suppose the whole "Human/Atlantean hybrids are sterile" thing got thrown out the window? It was the pillar of the whole Namorita is a clone of her "mother" Namora story during the Byrne era.

I have to admit the idea is rather convenient. But I tend to hate some retcons. Where was that exactly?

Ok so the "Namor and Namora are infertile because they are hybrids" thing was sort of explained in Agents of Atlas (2009) #7, where it's explained that they could have children but it was VERY hard for them to have them, like they have issues with being fertile.

[Reviresco]

Some great Gil Kane art there in those Wundaar pages.

So I suppose the whole "Human/Atlantean hybrids are sterile" thing got thrown out the window? It was the pillar of the whole Namorita is a clone of her "mother" Namora story during the Byrne era.

IIRC, that Bryne Namorita story only claimed Namora was having problems getting pregnant with her Atlantean husband. Later, Glen Herdling, I think who came up with the sterile hybrids, for both Namor and and Namora, for a truly terrible story dealing with Llyron and Llyra. Nothing in that story made any sense, especially that hybrid nonsense.

But that mess has been reputedly refuted / ignored, in several alternate universe stories, and in the Sub-Mariner Revolution mini-series. Namor has had kids.

Ok so the "Namor and Namora are infertile because they are hybrids" thing was sort of explained in Agents of Atlas (2009) #7, where it's explained that they could have children but it was VERY hard for them to have them, like they have issues with being fertile.

I've enjoyed a lot of Jeff Parker's stuff, including Agents of Atlas, of course, but that was a horrible retcon / rewriting of Atlantean and Namor and Namora's history.

[Reviresco]

Namor had some horrible inconsistencies with power levels during the golden age, one story he was throwing cars at policeman and having bullets ricochet his chest and then in another story he is stabbed with a knife and bled into unconsciousness. Although to be fair the issue where he is stabbed I don't think was written by Everett. But Stan Lee took care of keeping everything neat and consistent for years and all the other editos who inherited the editor in chief mantle like Archie Goodwin, Roy Thomas and Jim Shooter continued making a great job. I think it wasn't until Harras & Quesada that you started seeing Wolverine & the Punisher and other darlings of the decade crossing power level boundaries and jobbing bigger guns, something you never saw before. Today unless you get a writer like Kurt Busiek who knows a lot about Marvel's history you won't get anything of the sort. No one will tell writers you cannot do this or that with this character, it is expected to get the favorite of the month or the star of the story to cross every line in a free for all with full disregard to continuity, character power levels and characterization. Hulk is either a joke or terrifying powerful depending on the writer, same thing with Thor and Namor. And Thor's hammer is just stupid how many people are wielding it these days, even in the MCU its Cap with Mjolnir all the rave, there is even a statue of him wielding the hammer.

Continuity and consistency didn't exist in the Golden Age. In fact, I'd say the only guy that even attempted it was Bill Everett with this serial stories about Namor. He even tried to explain his version of Namor the ultraman of the deeps, with the much less powerful character others made him into with one of the most iconic Golden Age Namor panels ever!



Everett had Namor strapped into that Atlantean machine to restore Namor's powers, and it reinvigorated him, to say the least.

I do agree, however, that modern writers tend to abuse other characters to pump up their favorite characters.

So much they could do with them right now, specially with the danger of glaciers melting in the earth poles, climate change, pollution, corporate greed, etc. Such a wealth of history to tackle within those old comics, and both characters as the champion of the ocean and defenders of the planet using science as their guide watching over earth’s climate and its overall health. We just need someone bright that knows the history of these characters and can syphon all that into interesting, compelling creative stories.

Sadly, we probably won't see Namor don his eco-warrior role again, if this rumor about the Aquaman 2 movie is true.

James Wan said that the next movie is more "serious" and more relevant to the modern age. It has been rumored that this movie will deal with environmental issues

[Reviresco]

I think Namora should stay with the Agents of Atlas but also have responsibilities in Atlantis; now I don't want co rulers for the throne but as a princess I feel Namora should be a Regent of some other city. The ocean is large and there should be other cities out there, they may not be as grand as Atlantis but still impressive. Namora could show up in Atlantis to visit Namor and Nita, and attend important court functions and other Atlantean events.

Nita should have time with the New Warriors but she should be based in Atlantis anytime she isn't with her team. I want to have the Namor and Nita cousin bond back again, with Namor as an older brother to Nita. Basically I want there to be more court drama, and maybe Namor and Nita go on a adventure to find out more about the past of Atlantis or trying to stop a new threat to their people. So I want more Nita than I do Namora.

I don't think the New Warriors (her version) exist anymore, do they?

I like all that you propose. I gotta say I find Namora intriguing because to me she is a new character that I still haven't read much about but she is also an original character from the golden age so she has that pedigree that to me is so important vs Wave, Amadeos Cho and all the new characters that for some reason I cannot connect much with maybe because I think they detract from my real favorites like Hercules or Namor when writers tend to focus so much more on them and sometimes have the original heroes take a back seat in the new stories they develop.

Having Namora with the Agents of Atlas and regent of an important Atlantean city is a great idea. It keeps the character importance in Atlantis while giving her a superhero association separate from Namor. Doesn't takes away that Namor and her might team up from time to time and even Namor joining the Atlas on certain adventures as a guest star. But like you my connection is more with Nita because she was the one I would see as Namor sidekick when I was a kid in the comics. Most memorable the adventure where she meets Wundarr the Aquarian in Marvel Two in One.v

That's sort of my thought, also, that Nita has more of a relationship / history with Namor. She's plays a larger part in Namor's life and has more ties to Atlantis than Namora does -- at least in print. It's kind of odd, because Nita has played two different roles -- first as the teenager / young person who spent most of her time on the surface. Second, as one of the regents for Atlantis, when Namor wasn't around. IIRC, she was part of a governing trio for a while. Here's an odd thought ... shouldn't Nita be about Namora's age? I mean, Namora was in suspended animation since the 1950s. If we go with what Parker wrote in that page IW posted, she was 5 - 10 years younger than Namor.

Of course, all that has been negated now, since the Nita we've got is actually from another timeline and much younger -- which could be a good thing. I'm wondering if Nita would be good on a teen Atlantean team? We've got a few characters that have been created, and abandoned ....


I do value Namora's Golden Age roots, but since her return, she really has avoided Atlantis and pretty much abdicated her responsibilities there. She's chosen to stick with Jimmy Woo and Atlas. Which was why the Secret Empire Brave New World story was so weird. Like suddenly the Atlanteans would follow someone they don't know and haven't seen in over 70 years over Namor?

[ImperiusWrecked]

I don't think the New Warriors (her version) exist anymore, do they?


That's sort of my thought, also, that Nita has more of a relationship / history with Namor. She's plays a larger part in Namor's life and has more ties to Atlantis than Namora does -- at least in print. It's kind of odd, because Nita has played two different roles -- first as the teenager / young person who spent most of her time on the surface. Second, as one of the regents for Atlantis, when Namor wasn't around. IIRC, she was part of a governing trio for a while. Here's an odd thought ... shouldn't Nita be about Namora's age? I mean, Namora was in suspended animation since the 1950s. If we go with what Parker wrote in that page IW posted, she was 5 - 10 years younger than Namor.

Of course, all that has been negated now, since the Nita we've got is actually from another timeline and much younger -- which could be a good thing. I'm wondering if Nita would be good on a teen Atlantean team? We've got a few characters that have been created, and abandoned ....


I do value Namora's Golden Age roots, but since her return, she really has avoided Atlantis and pretty much abdicated her responsibilities there. She's chosen to stick with Jimmy Woo and Atlas. Which was why the Secret Empire Brave New World story was so weird. Like suddenly the Atlanteans would follow someone they don't know and haven't seen in over 70 years over Namor?

The promo art and snippet of the New New Warriors showed us an updated version of Nita, and it was said it was the old team back together again, so I can't wait for the New Warriors (2020) series to finally be released to see what they have done with Nita. Honestly at this point I don't even care if they give no backstory as to how she came back to life, I just want the character back because I love her. lol

Sadly, we probably won't see Namor don his eco-warrior role again, if this rumor about the Aquaman 2 movie is true.

No, we will only get to see Marvel use Namor as a threat and plot device over and over again )':

[Reviresco]

Well, I would agree it is not pleasing to see Namor handled this way.

It seems, he is only a plot device, we go over this all the time. Ka-zar can swim to Atlantis in another recent story?

Well that is disappointing. My guess is, they feel anything that might make Namor look better, would invoke the comparisons to Aquaman, which is pretty hot right now. Namor deserved that.

Yes. It was basically the same thing! Leaping out of a Wakandan air ship over Atlantis. Which makes them doing it again with Conan even worse. Though at least this time they came up with something to allow Conan to breath water instead of Ka-Zar free diving miles down on a single breath.

I don't think it has much to do with Aquaman, at least in the comics.

I went in low hopes since the series so far to me seemed more like a "this month we are guest starring "X" character" than anything else. I liked the art alot though! I do like Ahmed as a writer but I think this series limited him in what he could do with Namor, however I agree about how Namor should be able to have some kind of resistance to the serpent crown because he has dealt with it before, and another thing that annoyed me was how the Wakandains had a water breathing compound that Namor had created??? Why would Namor want to make something that allows surfacers to breath underwater and why would the Wakandians have it? I'm so tired of Marvel constantly needing to mention that the relations between Atlantis and Wakanda "are tense" and pushing the Atlantis vs Wakanda stuff >:/*e past of Atlantis or trying to stop a new threat to their people.

I agree with that 200%! If I never see Wakanda and Atlantis in the same sentence again, much less on the same page, I will be very happy.

Remember, in Zdarsky's Invaders, it was Machan / Namor's idea to change all the surface dwellers into water breathers. Something I didn't think Namor would do, personally, given his experience with Hydroman, Betty Dean, and his own gill - less experiences.

I don't know. I don't see anyone 'protecting' Namor at Marvel right now and telling writers what they can or cannot do with the character. Quite the opposite. I guess I think Saladin Ahmed missed a great opportunity to do a cool story that actually built on the shared continuities / histories of both Conan and Namor. The one plausible team-up that wouldn't be forced or yet another "man out of time" Conan story -- and instead we got this standard fare, that could have been Conan searching for any magic McGuffin. Think about it. We could have gotten something expanding on the Nexus of All Realities and Celito, or Kamuu and Zarta, or something with Llyra! We could have gotten a Kull meets Conan! At the very least, we should have gotten loincloth Conan meeting speedo Namor and agreeing shirts are overrated. ;p