Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2020

[Oberon]

Yep
very agree

[Thor-El]

You don't need an enourmous slab of beef to play Namor. One of the things I most liked about The Sub-Mariner was that he was so powerful but yet so lithe. It made his contrasts against goes like Attuma, The Hulk and (most classically) The Thing so visually compelling.

No one is saying that. I get you don't want a huge roided bodybuilder to play Namor but Momoa is not an "enourmous slab of beef". Momoa is a very tall guy with a heroic build that at the very least looks naturally big and muscular. By any means he looks like a bodybuilder. Fighting Hulk or the Thing you would get that contrast even with a huge bodybuilder.

And Sub-mariner being "so lithe" depends on the artist, there are plenty of artists that have drawn him extremely musclebound, including Bill Everett his creator.

[Thor-El]

Well, when you put it that way... but I think - to me - the various Dorma as clone, Dorma as Counter-Earth version, Dorma as multi-verse version

have spoiled or tainted the prospect. I think I've been conditioned to think of Namor as semi-tragic unlucky in love - Betty D, Sue, Dorma, Marinna, etc.

For me, I would have to see the story, whether it is Dorma back, after all this time, or someone new or available and 'like' - a water breather is preferred but maybe something else? An Inhuman who can live underwater or similar? I don't know.

I think I've been conditioned out of the idea due to Namor's 'plot' usage, more than anything. So I would need an organic way of seeing this. I always liked him best, in the old Defenders, quite frankly. More than the Avengers, X-Men or Invaders, though the latter is about 2nd.

Gwen Stacy also went to a series of stories like that but ultimately they struck gold with Spider Gwen. Dorma has a lot of value as Marvel's first female character with a rich history that starts in the Golden Age and becomes more important in the Silver Age. That only gives her a pedigree not many other characters have.

[Thor-El]

I'm always going to be salty that DC snagged Momoa first when anyone with eyes can plainly see he was totally Namor, or at least they took aspects of Namor from his savage era. *sigh* I just hope we get a good Namor if he ever gets into the movies. Bad characterization can ruin a character because you see that transferred back to the comics ever since the mcu started.

DC has stolen so much from Namor. The character presented in their film is at least 50% Namor and that is just being generous.

[Spiderfang]

To be honest I greatly prefer Namor lithe, pink and in those scaly green speedos.


EDIT: To elaborate I just prefer his classic broody looks from the gold & silver age, definitely NOT the 90's looks.

[Oberon]

Gwen Stacy also went to a series of stories like that but ultimately they struck gold with Spider Gwen. Dorma has a lot of value as Marvel's first female character with a rich history that starts in the Golden Age and becomes more important in the Silver Age. That only gives her a pedigree not many other characters have.

Those are good points to consider. Gwen is more 'known' generally, even to the comic world, than Dorma may be.

In all this, there would have to be the will of Marvel to go this way. Sure, although I prefer Namor to have someone new, a credible way to bring back Dorma would be something I wouldn't sneeze at.

Bucky - never really killed, so easy to tinker with that.

Jean - retconned that never really killed, so easy to tinker with.

What I would like, would be a way of saying she was never killed, like above. I actually can't recall her death scene, but I suppose we saw her body.
Magic curses or spells that made her seem dead, only to be reversed after her entombment by *someone*.

It's tempting to consider the cloning science of Atlantis, ala Nita, but there would have to be some reason why Dorma would be hidden for so long. The seas are far more vast than land. What underwater dweller could have found a way to steal her (non) dead body to the furthest reaches of the oceans, far from Atlantis. Fully revive her. Alter her memories.

It might be better if it was not a plot against Namor (too many, no?) and just someone who was obsessed with Dorma for themselves and wanted to keep her away until . . .

[Thor-El]

Those are good points to consider. Gwen is more 'known' generally, even to the comic world, than Dorma may be.

In all this, there would have to be the will of Marvel to go this way. Sure, although I prefer Namor to have someone new, a credible way to bring back Dorma would be something I wouldn't sneeze at.

Bucky - never really killed, so easy to tinker with that.

Jean - retconned that never really killed, so easy to tinker with.

What I would like, would be a way of saying she was never killed, like above. I actually can't recall her death scene, but I suppose we saw her body.
Magic curses or spells that made her seem dead, only to be reversed after her entombment by *someone*.

It's tempting to consider the cloning science of Atlantis, ala Nita, but there would have to be some reason why Dorma would be hidden for so long. The seas are far more vast than land. What underwater dweller could have found a way to steal her (non) dead body to the furthest reaches of the oceans, far from Atlantis. Fully revive her. Alter her memories.

It might be better if it was not a plot against Namor (too many, no?) and just someone who was obsessed with Dorma for themselves and wanted to keep her away until . . .

I think right now it is really easy to bring her back. I haven't read the entire story but I saw some panels of Agents of Atlas that explain Namora was poisoned by Llyra. She was entombed in a crystal chamber for decades only to be brought back to life by the Agents as she wasn't really dead just in suspended animation. So a conversation between Namora and Namor mentioning Dorma could lead to an investigation and finding out that Dorma's "death" is as reversible as Namora's.

[Doombot]

Bringing back dead characters is bad across the table. "Well if character-X was brought back why can't Dorma?" Of course she can, these are fictional characters, but was it good these characters were brought back? Was it good Gwen was brought back, or any other of the 50 eye-rolling times characters were brought back from the dead? Not in my opinion. I'm still annoyed they dug up the Green Goblin after so many years. Hasn't Vashti been brought back a bunch of times? Has it ever benefitted anything besides returning the status quo? Comic writers dig up these old characters in place of good ideas or doing the difficult work of creating new characters. I say it every time this topic comes up, which seems to be often, but leave Dorma dead. Who she was to Namor and the shocking manner of her death strengthen Namor as a character, and bringing her back only weakens him. Not to mention resurrections are lame. I am not knocking anyone for wanting and liking these characters, I love Dorma and Vashti too, but Namor desperately needs new blood, new ideas, new characters. I very much dislike resurrected characters, knock-offs, or clones (ugh), these are just weak ideas 99.9% of the time. Part of the reason Marvel continues to circle the drain is this very thing.

[Thor-El]

Bringing back dead characters is bad across the table. "Well if character-X was brought back why can't Dorma?" Of course she can, these are fictional characters, but was it good these characters were brought back? Was it good Gwen was brought back, or any other of the 50 eye-rolling times characters were brought back from the dead? Not in my opinion. I'm still annoyed they dug up the Green Goblin after so many years. Hasn't Vashti been brought back a bunch of times? Has it ever benefitted anything besides returning the status quo? Comic writers dig up these old characters in place of good ideas or doing the difficult work of creating new characters. I say it every time this topic comes up, which seems to be often, but leave Dorma dead. Who she was to Namor and the shocking manner of her death strengthen Namor as a character, and bringing her back only weakens him. Not to mention resurrections are lame. I am not knocking anyone for wanting and liking these characters, I love Dorma and Vashti too, but Namor desperately needs new blood, new ideas, new characters. I very much dislike resurrected characters, knock-offs, or clones (ugh), these are just weak ideas 99.9% of the time. Part of the reason Marvel continues to circle the drain is this very thing.

I think I don't have to argue this point too much. The popularity of Spider Gwen and the Winter Soldier speaks by itself. Yes, these characters deaths meant something in a particular storyline but by their deaths and long absence from the Marvel Universe their mythical worth grows, that's why its so great to see them back and suddenly take on new life. How many new disposable Atlanteans have we met thru the years? I can say the same thing about Asgardians and even Avengers. I think is the opposite, every writer thinks he can come up with a great new character. Certain characters are meant to stay dead, not Dorma and Vashti as they are part of an important dynamic Namor looses when they are not around, and no they are not replaceable, they are part of Namor's roots and the heart and face of Atlantis with a deep history for old and new readers.

[Doombot]

I couldn't disagree more.

[Reviresco]

I think right now it is really easy to bring her back. I haven't read the entire story but I saw some panels of Agents of Atlas that explain Namora was poisoned by Llyra. She was entombed in a crystal chamber for decades only to be brought back to life by the Agents as she wasn't really dead just in suspended animation. So a conversation between Namora and Namor mentioning Dorma could lead to an investigation and finding out that Dorma's "death" is as reversible as Namora's.

There seems to be some sort of odd suspended animation that afflicts the Atlanteans that is often mistaken for dead. It did happen to Namora and I think to Princess Fen. Oh, and Llyra. And something happened to Emperor Tha-Korr too, before he became a vampire. I mean, he was mistaken for dead.

However, that doesn't really work with Dorma, because in the Byrne clone retcon for Namorita, Vyrra, the clone scientist, reduced Dorma's physical body to a handful of test tubes to make those Dorma clones.

Bringing back dead characters is bad across the table. "Well if character-X was brought back why can't Dorma?" Of course she can, these are fictional characters, but was it good these characters were brought back? Was it good Gwen was brought back, or any other of the 50 eye-rolling times characters were brought back from the dead? Not in my opinion. I'm still annoyed they dug up the Green Goblin after so many years. Hasn't Vashti been brought back a bunch of times? Has it ever benefitted anything besides returning the status quo? Comic writers dig up these old characters in place of good ideas or doing the difficult work of creating new characters. I say it every time this topic comes up, which seems to be often, but leave Dorma dead. Who she was to Namor and the shocking manner of her death strengthen Namor as a character, and bringing her back only weakens him. Not to mention resurrections are lame. I am not knocking anyone for wanting and liking these characters, I love Dorma and Vashti too, but Namor desperately needs new blood, new ideas, new characters. I very much dislike resurrected characters, knock-offs, or clones (ugh), these are just weak ideas 99.9% of the time. Part of the reason Marvel continues to circle the drain is this very thing.

No, I don't think Vashti has actually died on panel. He just disappeared, without explanation, i.e. writers stopped using him for some reason. I think someone tried to kill him off in that Hulk Namor annual, but the disease he was dying from was cured, IIRC.

It's not difficult, it is impossible to create "new" supporting characters that stick, when the lead doesn't even have a book. We get new characters with every new take on Namor, but none of them stick. Abira, Argo, Dara, Machan, Kamar, Loa, Carrie Alexander, the Logmancer, a gazillion different "new" Atlantis or new underwater cities. They don't get any support, are immediately discarded by the next writer. Using Vashti or resurrecting Dorma isn't about returning to the status quo, so much as building on the foundation of what went before, instead of recreating the wheel each time a writer wants to tell a Namor story. TBH, I don't care about most of these new characters because there is zero investment or history for the characters. Especially when said new character is introduced just to die and provide more angst for Namor.

I agree in part. Resurrections can be lame. Look at the crap Robinson dished out for Namor in Squadron Supreme. Look at the mess they've made with Namorita and Marrina. I don't want Dorma back just to return to a status quo. I would have LOVED it if they had did something with the Counter Earth Dorma and Namor. Heck, even the clone Dormas could have been interesting. But again, the new ideas with the old character were just discarded without a thought.

There IS a certain nostalgia factor in American superhero comics now. People want to see the characters and villains they grew up with. It's why we constantly have Galactus show up and the Phoenix. Writers don't want to create too many cool new ideas / characters to give away to Marvel, when they can save them for their own creator owned books.

I think I don't have to argue this point too much. The popularity of Spider Gwen and the Winter Soldier speaks by itself. Yes, these characters deaths meant something in a particular storyline but by their deaths and long absence from the Marvel Universe their mythical worth grows, that's why its so great to see them back and suddenly take on new life. How many new disposable Atlanteans have we met thru the years? I can say the same thing about Asgardians and even Avengers. I think is the opposite, every writer thinks he can come up with a great new character. Certain characters are meant to stay dead, not Dorma and Vashti as they are part of an important dynamic Namor looses when they are not around, and no they are not replaceable, they are part of Namor's roots and the heart and face of Atlantis with a deep history for old and new readers.

I couldn't disagree more.

I don't care for Spider-Gwen, but there's no denying that she's had success -- if nothing else, with the movies. And the return of Bucky was awesome with Brubaker and in the movies.

[Oberon]

I think right now it is really easy to bring her back. I haven't read the entire story but I saw some panels of Agents of Atlas that explain Namora was poisoned by Llyra. She was entombed in a crystal chamber for decades only to be brought back to life by the Agents as she wasn't really dead just in suspended animation. So a conversation between Namora and Namor mentioning Dorma could lead to an investigation and finding out that Dorma's "death" is as reversible as Namora's.

I don't recall Namora's story, but isn't it sort of like that too? I like the idea though, because it plays to Llyra's past actions. And it is simple.

[Oberon]

I sort of agree with you but mostly no.

Bucky brought back, because never died, was incredible. While Jean's eventual story (suspended in a cocoon for years) works nearly the same way, it was less of a shock more of a given that Jean would return some day (and again and again) It still doesn't diminish her, to me, and probably most fans. Story clarity or concerns aside.

So Namor would be more like Bucky and would be more of a righting of the scales. Possibly the reinvigoration (we hope) that is needed.

Final resolvement of all lingering issues between his 'ships with Sue, Emma or anyone else? Sue could end up being a good friend to Dorma (despite some bad things that happened a ways back....) after all Sue still may retain some regent thing with those older Atlanteans.

I see a plot and not just with Agents and Namora. Wouldn't Bucky very much want to help Namor if he also knew this or found out?

Llyra, being Lemurian, may possibly have/had her own connections to the Ancient Atlanteans . . .

[Oberon]

There seems to be some sort of odd suspended animation that afflicts the Atlanteans that is often mistaken for dead. It did happen to Namora and I think to Princess Fen. Oh, and Llyra. And something happened to Emperor Tha-Korr too, before he became a vampire. I mean, he was mistaken for dead.

However, that doesn't really work with Dorma, because in the Byrne clone retcon for Namorita, Vyrra, the clone scientist, reduced Dorma's physical body to a handful of test tubes to make those Dorma clones.





No, I don't think Vashti has actually died on panel. He just disappeared, without explanation, i.e. writers stopped using him for some reason. I think someone tried to kill him off in that Hulk Namor annual, but the disease he was dying from was cured, IIRC.

It's not difficult, it is impossible to create "new" supporting characters that stick, when the lead doesn't even have a book. We get new characters with every new take on Namor, but none of them stick. Abira, Argo, Dara, Machan, Kamar, Loa, Carrie Alexander, the Logmancer, a gazillion different "new" Atlantis or new underwater cities. They don't get any support, are immediately discarded by the next writer. Using Vashti or resurrecting Dorma isn't about returning to the status quo, so much as building on the foundation of what went before, instead of recreating the wheel each time a writer wants to tell a Namor story. TBH, I don't care about most of these new characters because there is zero investment or history for the characters. Especially when said new character is introduced just to die and provide more angst for Namor.

I agree in part. Resurrections can be lame. Look at the crap Robinson dished out for Namor in Squadron Supreme. Look at the mess they've made with Namorita and Marrina. I don't want Dorma back just to return to a status quo. I would have LOVED it if they had did something with the Counter Earth Dorma and Namor. Heck, even the clone Dormas could have been interesting. But again, the new ideas with the old character were just discarded without a thought.

There IS a certain nostalgia factor in American superhero comics now. People want to see the characters and villains they grew up with. It's why we constantly have Galactus show up and the Phoenix. Writers don't want to create too many cool new ideas / characters to give away to Marvel, when they can save them for their own creator owned books.







I don't care for Spider-Gwen, but there's no denying that she's had success -- if nothing else, with the movies. And the return of Bucky was awesome with Brubaker and in the movies.

Vyrra would have used agents and agents could be bribed or counter agents. Maybe the clone of Dorma didn't work out because there was another plot going on with Dorma that he didn't realize.

[Reviresco]

I sort of agree with you but mostly no.

Bucky brought back, because never died, was incredible. While Jean's eventual story (suspended in a cocoon for years) works nearly the same way, it was less of a shock more of a given that Jean would return some day (and again and again) It still doesn't diminish her, to me, and probably most fans. Story clarity or concerns aside.

So Namor would be more like Bucky and would be more of a righting of the scales. Possibly the reinvigoration (we hope) that is needed.

Final resolvement of all lingering issues between his 'ships with Sue, Emma or anyone else? Sue could end up being a good friend to Dorma (despite some bad things that happened a ways back....) after all Sue still may retain some regent thing with those older Atlanteans.

I see a plot and not just with Agents and Namora. Wouldn't Bucky very much want to help Namor if he also knew this or found out?

Llyra, being Lemurian, may possibly have/had her own connections to the Ancient Atlanteans . . .

Oh, you mean that time Lady Dorma shoved Sue out the air lock to drown? LOL!

Of course, that seems to have been largely overlooked / forgiven, as IIRC, Dorma was working with the FF to save Namor and Atlantis in FF 33. Just like no one mentions that time Magneto took book Sue AND Lady Dorma hostage -- something that Namor wouldn't have forgiven or forgotten that easily, IMO.