Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2020

[Thor-El]

I don't recall Namora's story, but isn't it sort of like that too? I like the idea though, because it plays to Llyra's past actions. And it is simple.

I'm glad I convinced you, Oberon.

[Thor-El]

There seems to be some sort of odd suspended animation that afflicts the Atlanteans that is often mistaken for dead. It did happen to Namora and I think to Princess Fen. Oh, and Llyra. And something happened to Emperor Tha-Korr too, before he became a vampire. I mean, he was mistaken for dead.

However, that doesn't really work with Dorma, because in the Byrne clone retcon for Namorita, Vyrra, the clone scientist, reduced Dorma's physical body to a handful of test tubes to make those Dorma clones.

Easily retconned, if it didn't happen on panel, it was a lie. Why would you need an entire body to make clones when you just need the DNA, doesn't makes any sense! And by the way I hate clones, if its not the original coming back I don't want it.

No, I don't think Vashti has actually died on panel. He just disappeared, without explanation, i.e. writers stopped using him for some reason. I think someone tried to kill him off in that Hulk Namor annual, but the disease he was dying from was cured, IIRC.

It's not difficult, it is impossible to create "new" supporting characters that stick, when the lead doesn't even have a book. We get new characters with every new take on Namor, but none of them stick. Abira, Argo, Dara, Machan, Kamar, Loa, Carrie Alexander, the Logmancer, a gazillion different "new" Atlantis or new underwater cities. They don't get any support, are immediately discarded by the next writer. Using Vashti or resurrecting Dorma isn't about returning to the status quo, so much as building on the foundation of what went before, instead of recreating the wheel each time a writer wants to tell a Namor story. TBH, I don't care about most of these new characters because there is zero investment or history for the characters. Especially when said new character is introduced just to die and provide more angst for Namor.

I agree in part. Resurrections can be lame. Look at the crap Robinson dished out for Namor in Squadron Supreme. Look at the mess they've made with Namorita and Marrina. I don't want Dorma back just to return to a status quo. I would have LOVED it if they had did something with the Counter Earth Dorma and Namor. Heck, even the clone Dormas could have been interesting. But again, the new ideas with the old character were just discarded without a thought.

There IS a certain nostalgia factor in American superhero comics now. People want to see the characters and villains they grew up with. It's why we constantly have Galactus show up and the Phoenix. Writers don't want to create too many cool new ideas / characters to give away to Marvel, when they can save them for their own creator owned books.

I don't care for Spider-Gwen, but there's no denying that she's had success -- if nothing else, with the movies. And the return of Bucky was awesome with Brubaker and in the movies.

Namor without Vashti and Dorma is like a King of ghosts. The Atlanteans right now are ghosts, there is not a character from Atlantis that I can name or care about. Its like the way the Skrulls have always been. To me the Super Skrull is the only character recognizable from that race. Dorma and Vashti give a heart and a soul to Atlantis and the Atlanteans. Its the same now with Thor in the MCU. They destroyed Asgard and killed all the important Asgardians. And while I'm glad Jane Foster is coming back, not so much that all that important cast is gone nor that she may push the real Thor aside, but that is still something we don't know. Would I be glad to see a bunch of new Asgardians in the next film, honestly I probably wouldn't care about them, I want to see the ones with decades of comic book history, that I can go back and read about, or see in a cartoon. Part of the identity of Namor was that there was a woman from his Atlantean heritage that became his one true love thru numerous adventures where she was developed and elevated as THE ONE. And Lord Vashti represented the wisdom of the old and experience, a father figure both always there to tame and curse correct the impetuous character of king Namor. The dynamic between Namor and those two gave shape to Namor's character. And the best thing, those characters were created and developed since the beginning by the real architects of the Marvel Universe. And I've come to accept that most of what new writers create with these characters will never be as good as what was done when Marvel was a tight operation with clear defined teams for every character when Stan Lee used to run the ship.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Lots of good discussion going on, my own opinion is that Dorma and Vashti should come back mainly because they were staple characters who held the book together during what I believe was Namor's best age of comics. I love Silver Age Namor more than I do the modern age Namor. It really isn't hard to bring Dorma back and we don't have to rely on science when magic could work. Neptune could be brought into this as well, maybe Namor did something heroic and Neptune asks him his fondest wish and it would be to have one more chance with Dorma? I would want more Atlantean deities and more sea people/monsters brought in as new characters.

The problems isn't the characters, Dorma was a great character who had probably one major flaw which was her jealousy but she loved Namor, and Vashti was very loyal and Namor needs some people in his corner to face any issues who arrive. The issue is good writers, we need Marvel to let someone who understands these characters and is committed to keeping them in Atlantis rather than using them to bring in their fave surface characters. Like something that annoys me greatly was how Namor was in the Savage Land during his 90s run and it was literally all an excuse to bring back Iron Fist. I could care less about Iron Fist and I hate how books were dedicated to that story arc.

Something else I would like to ask the board: I was recently in discussion with some Namor fans about Namor's speed, we were talking about one of those power grid levels for characters and how low they made Namor in some areas. So exactly how fast is Namor? I don't think it was ever written down in the books how fast he swam underwater but I recall the Black Panther (2009) issue 1, I believe it was, said, Namor was as fast as the Quinjet. What do you all think?

[Doombot]

Too many people are arguing details about how to bring Dorma back, which isn't the point, but why to bring her back. To quote a certain Dr. Malcolm : "your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

What does it do, besides reset a very old status quo and stir up nostalgia? Not only does bringing her back take away some of Namor's depth as a character but it also robs Llyra of her evil claim to fame and motivation for the two characters to keep on hating each other. Llyra was able to accomplish something so few villains get to do, have lasting impact against the hero. Almost all villain antics are forgotten by the next time you see them, but not that one. Dorma's death is the only reason we see Llyra as a classic, top Namor villain. I certainly don't remember her for Atlantis Attacks.

Also, Namora was brought back, Namorita was brought back, Marrina was brought back, Vashit was brought back, Namor himself on multiple occasions was brought back, even Fen was brought back. Fen especially was dug up for shock value only to be tortured and killed again. Suma-Ket was a good enough villain without all that.

I understand that new characters have been created and forgotten, this has more to do with Namor's inability to hold an ongoing book with an ongoing creative team. It's very difficult to make characters stick if you have nowhere to stick them. But the answer isn't dragging up any and all characters from the past simply because we remember them. The answer is Namor needs a goddamned ongoing.

[Oberon]

Oh, you mean that time Lady Dorma shoved Sue out the air lock to drown? LOL!

Of course, that seems to have been largely overlooked / forgiven, as IIRC, Dorma was working with the FF to save Namor and Atlantis in FF 33. Just like no one mentions that time Magneto took book Sue AND Lady Dorma hostage -- something that Namor wouldn't have forgiven or forgotten that easily, IMO.

Yes - - exactly that Reviresco. I did not see it the first time around, but probably came across that story in a reprint form in the '70s. I have slightly less remembrance of the story in FF 33. That was Attuma and it had one of those Photo merge covers? I do remember 101 or whatever it was with Magneto kidnapping the damsels. It doesn't stick exactly and I felt it was a rushed or side effort, as Kirby was starting to move on, right?

[Oberon]

I'm actually pretty easy going and easily convincible despite my wacky ideas or fixation on Sue and Namor.

A good idea is a good idea. If Dorma was truly gone, and if Reed was truly gone, who knows what might happen, but we may see otherwise.

[Oberon]

Easily retconned, if it didn't happen on panel, it was a lie. Why would you need an entire body to make clones when you just need the DNA, doesn't makes any sense! And by the way I hate clones, if its not the original coming back I don't want it.






Namor without Vashti and Dorma is like a King of ghosts. The Atlanteans right now are ghosts, there is not a character from Atlantis that I can name or care about. Its like the way the Skrulls have always been. To me the Super Skrull is the only character recognizable from that race. Dorma and Vashti give a heart and a soul to Atlantis and the Atlanteans. Its the same now with Thor in the MCU. They destroyed Asgard and killed all the important Asgardians. And while I'm glad Jane Foster is coming back, not so much that all that important cast is gone nor that she may push the real Thor aside, but that is still something we don't know. Would I be glad to see a bunch of new Asgardians in the next film, honestly I probably wouldn't care about them, I want to see the ones with decades of comic book history, that I can go back and read about, or see in a cartoon. Part of the identity of Namor was that there was a woman from his Atlantean heritage that became his one true love thru numerous adventures where she was developed and elevated as THE ONE. And Lord Vashti represented the wisdom of the old and experience, a father figure both always there to tame and curse correct the impetuous character of king Namor. The dynamic between Namor and those two gave shape to Namor's character. And the best thing, those characters were created and developed since the beginning by the real architects of the Marvel Universe. And I've come to accept that most of what new writers create with these characters will never be as good as what was done when Marvel was a tight operation with clear defined teams for every character when Stan Lee used to run the ship.

This is a very nice summation and you should be proud of it. You really are a good fan.

Namor and his time of wanting other women, should be over. If Namor is in his own way the original version of Superman, for the company that was not DC,

well, even Superman married Lois (but again... au contraire Obie, I liked Lana Lang better in a way. Gosh I 'm so naughty)

But maybe there is another reason why Vashti is missing in recent years. Maybe he is trying to fully restore or care for the revived Dorma, hmmmm?

And/or had to flee and hide this because of one of the other elements, Llyra or other plots.

[Oberon]

Lots of good discussion going on, my own opinion is that Dorma and Vashti should come back mainly because they were staple characters who held the book together during what I believe was Namor's best age of comics. I love Silver Age Namor more than I do the modern age Namor. It really isn't hard to bring Dorma back and we don't have to rely on science when magic could work. Neptune could be brought into this as well, maybe Namor did something heroic and Neptune asks him his fondest wish and it would be to have one more chance with Dorma? I would want more Atlantean deities and more sea people/monsters brought in as new characters.

The problems isn't the characters, Dorma was a great character who had probably one major flaw which was her jealousy but she loved Namor, and Vashti was very loyal and Namor needs some people in his corner to face any issues who arrive. The issue is good writers, we need Marvel to let someone who understands these characters and is committed to keeping them in Atlantis rather than using them to bring in their fave surface characters. Like something that annoys me greatly was how Namor was in the Savage Land during his 90s run and it was literally all an excuse to bring back Iron Fist. I could care less about Iron Fist and I hate how books were dedicated to that story arc.

Something else I would like to ask the board: I was recently in discussion with some Namor fans about Namor's speed, we were talking about one of those power grid levels for characters and how low they made Namor in some areas. So exactly how fast is Namor? I don't think it was ever written down in the books how fast he swam underwater but I recall the Black Panther (2009) issue 1, I believe it was, said, Namor was as fast as the Quinjet. What do you all think?

You too should be proud of these words. Very nice. yes, Classic Silver Age and somewhat/little into the Bronze was the best. I think I enjoyed Namor very much into the Defenders era. Things in the '80s started to change, yeah, that long ago.
Dorma and Vashti are indeed classic characters that really helped define Namor and Atlantis.

I did not read lots of Byrne's run later but some was okay. I liked the way he brought Spitfire back. See, there is a way to do something that ends up seeming right.

I guess I would not rule out magic as a way of bringing Dorma back, but we still have the Vashti problem, which I think my idea is possibly better. But magic or Pagan gods, like Neptune would be effective for just Dorma, per your ideas.

[Thor-El]

This is a very nice summation and you should be proud of it. You really are a good fan.

Namor and his time of wanting other women, should be over. If Namor is in his own way the original version of Superman, for the company that was not DC,

well, even Superman married Lois (but again... au contraire Obie, I liked Lana Lang better in a way. Gosh I 'm so naughty)

But maybe there is another reason why Vashti is missing in recent years. Maybe he is trying to fully restore or care for the revived Dorma, hmmmm?

And/or had to flee and hide this because of one of the other elements, Llyra or other plots.

Ah Oberon you give me hope. Love the image of Vashti caring for a revived Dorma. What an amazing way to re-introduce these two! And you are not alone in preferring Lana Lang to Lois Lane, specially when she was played by the gorgeous Kristin Kreuk.
Guess I'm not a very traditional Superman/Thor fan when I prefer Lana Lang and Jane Foster.

[Oberon]

Too many people are arguing details about how to bring Dorma back, which isn't the point, but why to bring her back. To quote a certain Dr. Malcolm : "your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

What does it do, besides reset a very old status quo and stir up nostalgia? Not only does bringing her back take away some of Namor's depth as a character but it also robs Llyra of her evil claim to fame and motivation for the two characters to keep on hating each other. Llyra was able to accomplish something so few villains get to do, have lasting impact against the hero. Almost all villain antics are forgotten by the next time you see them, but not that one. Dorma's death is the only reason we see Llyra as a classic, top Namor villain. I certainly don't remember her for Atlantis Attacks.

Also, Namora was brought back, Namorita was brought back, Marrina was brought back, Vashit was brought back, Namor himself on multiple occasions was brought back, even Fen was brought back. Fen especially was dug up for shock value only to be tortured and killed again. Suma-Ket was a good enough villain without all that.

I understand that new characters have been created and forgotten, this has more to do with Namor's inability to hold an ongoing book with an ongoing creative team. It's very difficult to make characters stick if you have nowhere to stick them. But the answer isn't dragging up any and all characters from the past simply because we remember them. The answer is Namor needs a goddamned ongoing.

I agree with two things. Namor needs an ongoing. And two, all those characters were brought back in Namor's life/books.

But that's comics and each of the FF have died and been brought back, or pretty much (yes, Reed just vanished way back). It is kind of the stock in trade.
I mean, I remember that technically Michael/Korvac brought back nearly all the Avengers waaaaaay back in the late '70s. Jean Grey numerous times now. Comic characters are 'serialized' characters like soap operas on TV or other ongoing series with the same characters. What do all those have in common? The best ones keep it fresh (Days of our Lives, since 1965) by rotating characters through roles (not necessarily consecutively or always all/the same orders). Victim, Victimizer, Redemptionist. Namor has been all but not effectively and usually a main character stays in one role longer. I dunno. I tend to think its all in the characterization, right?

But characters have to interact off of the best characters, and we don't have a coherent view of Atlantis and its people or concerns to make that happen.

[Oberon]

KK was pretty good as KK, but I tend to like LL as a redhead. The actress that played Lana in the old Superboy series (she later was on Soaps, both General Hospital and Days/Lives, currently) was one I liked.

I loved when Jane was the God of Thunder, I always like that stuff. I tend to like the female characters more; Sue is obviously my favorite character. Wanda, Jean, Janet fall closely behind.

To me the Sue/Namor and the Johnny/Crystal romances are comic book Romeo and Juliet, so of course they are fated to not end well, or happy, but that is why I love those stories so much. Two different worlds colliding and they can never tear us apart, oh wait that's a song I like too.

Anyway, I'm a romantic at heart, and that is always at the core of my love for Namor, too.

Whether Dorma or others come back, a new ongoing title should be set strictly underseas, and maybe take up the story of the Ancient Atlaneteans, involve old, old Gods or deviants and magic. Dorma would be the icing.

[Thor-El]

Too many people are arguing details about how to bring Dorma back, which isn't the point, but why to bring her back. To quote a certain Dr. Malcolm : "your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

What does it do, besides reset a very old status quo and stir up nostalgia? Not only does bringing her back take away some of Namor's depth as a character but it also robs Llyra of her evil claim to fame and motivation for the two characters to keep on hating each other. Llyra was able to accomplish something so few villains get to do, have lasting impact against the hero. Almost all villain antics are forgotten by the next time you see them, but not that one. Dorma's death is the only reason we see Llyra as a classic, top Namor villain. I certainly don't remember her for Atlantis Attacks.

Also, Namora was brought back, Namorita was brought back, Marrina was brought back, Vashit was brought back, Namor himself on multiple occasions was brought back, even Fen was brought back. Fen especially was dug up for shock value only to be tortured and killed again. Suma-Ket was a good enough villain without all that.

I understand that new characters have been created and forgotten, this has more to do with Namor's inability to hold an ongoing book with an ongoing creative team. It's very difficult to make characters stick if you have nowhere to stick them. But the answer isn't dragging up any and all characters from the past simply because we remember them. The answer is Namor needs a goddamned ongoing.

He had already a second ongoing by none other than John Byrne that lasted as long as his first one and none of those new characters that Byrne created stuck. That should prove you how superior are these characters created by Bill Everett and Stan Lee to new characters other creator introduce, these two are embedded in Namor's DNA. The only memorable character in Namor mythos from that era is Marrina and she was already dead when this second ongoing series started. And Dorma's resurrection doesn't invalidates Llira's claim to fame, Dorma was dead for years, Namor even remarried, the pain and the anguish still happened. Plus killing Dorma's is not the only horrible thing she has done to Namor, that is just one of many. I do want another ongoing for Namor, one that respect his history and gives homage to his past, which in many times involves resurrecting important cast members.

[Thor-El]

KK was pretty good as KK, but I tend to like LL as a redhead. The actress that played Lana in the old Superboy series (she later was on Soaps, both General Hospital and Days/Lives, currently) was one I liked.

I loved when Jane was the God of Thunder, I always like that stuff. I tend to like the female characters more; Sue is obviously my favorite character. Wanda, Jean, Janet fall closely behind.

To me the Sue/Namor and the Johnny/Crystal romances are comic book Romeo and Juliet, so of course they are fated to not end well, or happy, but that is why I love those stories so much. Two different worlds colliding and they can never tear us apart, oh wait that's a song I like too.

Anyway, I'm a romantic at heart, and that is always at the core of my love for Namor, too.

Whether Dorma or others come back, a new ongoing title should be set strictly underseas, and maybe take up the story of the Ancient Atlaneteans, involve old, old Gods or deviants and magic. Dorma would be the icing.

I can agree with that too.

[Doombot]

He had already a second ongoing by none other than John Byrne that lasted as long as his first one and none of those new characters that Byrne created stuck. That should prove you how superior are these characters created by Bill Everett and Stan Lee to new characters other creator introduce, these two are embedded in Namor's DNA. The only memorable character in Namor mythos from that era is Marrina and she was already dead when this second ongoing series started. And Dorma's resurrection doesn't invalidates Llira's claim to fame, Dorma was dead for years, Namor even remarried, the pain and the anguish still happened. Plus killing Dorma's is not the only horrible thing she has done to Namor, that is just one of many. I do want another ongoing for Namor, one that respect his history and gives homage to his past, which in many times involves resurrecting important cast members.

Again, couldn't disagree more. Aside from Byrne being terrible on Namor, which was lackluster at best. Pretty sure he liked the idea of doing a Namor book more than actually doing it. So many boring talking heads and weird obsessions with other non-Namor characters. Who wants to read about Iron Fist in a Namor book? Namor the business man? The oxygen imbalance? Blegh. Plus it was only 25 issues. 25 issues in 1990 when everyone was way more interested in edgy "badass" characters like Wolverine, Ghost Rider and X-Force. That's why they decided to make Namor an evil rock star post-Byrne. The only good thing to come out of that entire 90s run was Suma-Ket.

Respect and homage to Namor's past isn't digging it up to stand beside him.
Sure, Llyra's done lots of evil deeds, but can anyone but die-hards name any? Doubtful.

Building meaningful characters takes time. No one at Marvel is interested in putting in that time with Namor.

[Oberon]

I remember some of the characters in Byrne's run of Namor but not well. I feel that way about the villains he and others created for the FF, which rarely were used again. It is sort of the complaint in all the post bronze age comics I think. That supporting characters are one-offs.

The best or more memorable Namor stories around than were the Spitfire and Iron Fist stories.
Editors should be given a mandate to explore and have writers work with the complete continuity. Not just the seminal or whatever.