Page 8 of 33 FirstFirst ... 45678910111218 ... LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 483
  1. #106
    Mighty Member Hush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    1,515

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GylT'Nav View Post
    Thank you Hush, nice preview!

    Where is this picture from?
    This might be the reason why they are bringing x-23 in.
    It’s from X-Men Vol 2 #191 by Mike Carey & Clayton Henry. Yeah it would make sense, but something is strange with Serafina, as people noted in the X-Men #5 preview thread, she doesn’t seem to possess all of her powers, so maybe that’s why she's running away from Wolverine, she may not be able to do the same trick again.

    In any case, Logan shouldn’t pop his claws around her, just to be sure lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crossfist View Post
    How is the Wolverine Origin book by Jenkins and Gillen? Might get the hardcover sometime. It looks like there's a part 2 as well. Is that any good?
    There are two Origin mini, the first one released in 2001 was written by Paul Jenkins, Joe Quesada, Bill Jemas and was penciled by Andy Kubert. The follow-up to this story, Origin II was released in 2014 and was written by Kieron Gillen and was penciled by Adam Kubert.

    The Origin complete collection oversized hardcover collects those two miniseries:

    https://www.amazon.com/Wolverine-Com...s%2C287&sr=8-1

    I’m going to be honest with you, I’m not a big fan of those two minis (especially the first one) for several reasons but mostly because the first Origin mini had a bad impact on the character and paved the way for horrible stories that butchered Wolverine’s history during the 00s.

    With that said, the first Origin mini isn’t a bad story on its own (too cliché though) but as the “official origins" of Wolverine, it’s not good in my opinion. When you read this story, it feels like the writers established a checklist and tried to work their way around it, you got the redhead fetish, the missing memory, the claws, the human/animal duality, the name Wolverine, the figure of authority, the love triangle, the mention of samurai, why Logan calls everyone "bub" and of course you also have the Sabretooth look-alike.

    By doing what they did with this story, Marvel just demystified the character, they reduced him to another hero who became who he is after a traumatic event in his childhood and who will always repeat the same patterns from his past which is sad since the character used to be much more interesting than that. That’s a problem when you try to give an origin to a character years after his creation, it rarely works because those characters were never defined by their origins in the first place and in the case of Wolverine it's even worst, since the mystery surrounding the character was part of his personality, part of his "DNA".

    As Chris Claremont once said about Wolverine: “The less we know about him, the better”.


    Beyond giving Wolverine an unneeded new name, this story oversimplifies several aspects of Logan’s personality and powers, such as saying that he was born with the bone claws and was always an animal which adds nothing to the character, even worse it cheapens the impact of the Weapon X experiment in my opinion. I think it was much more interesting before the release of Origin that Logan was just a man whose only power was his healing factor (which as a side effect enhanced his senses and his physical attributes) before the Weapon X experiment, and that basically the Weapon X program took this mysterious “immortal” man and turned him into a weapon by giving him an unbreakable skeleton and those claws.

    It makes the whole experiment even more messed up and even more traumatizing especially when you see what happened the first time Logan unleashed his adamantium claws. In my opinion, those claws were basically a symbol of the whole inhumanity of this experiment and how the Weapon X program destroyed a man, reduced him to an animal and in the end turned him into a monster.

    Origin II is better written (at least the first issue) but in the end, this story serves as an excuse to have Logan "goes back to the civilized world" and to give an explanation behind the Wolverine/Sabretooth feud which wasn't needed. The story was referenced recently during the Ruins of Ravencroft: Sabretooth one shot though.


    TL;DR: Sorry for the long rant lol, but to answer your question, try to read the first Origin mini since it’s still the official story of Wolverine’s origins for now, you can still find it in tpb or OHC, but if you want to read a better origin story for Wolverine in OHC just wait for the Wolverine Omnibus Vol.1 reprint, it will collect the Weapon X story by Barry Windsor Smith which is a much better story and the only origin story Wolverine ever needed in my opinion.

    The Omnibus also collects several fantastic Wolverine stories, and among them one story (Wolverine Vol.2 #10) written by Chris Claremont and penciled by Bill Sienkiewicz which was for a long time the origin story behind the feud between Wolverine and Sabretooth and which is a much better story than what Gillen tried to do with Origin II.

    Hope that helps!
    Last edited by Hush; 01-24-2020 at 05:24 AM.

  2. #107

  3. #108
    Ultimate Member Ambaryerno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    12,648

    Default

    I disagree about the bone claws. IMO it's the idea that the claws were ALSO implants that weakens the concept because (as with the original concept where the claws were part of his gloves) it creates a scenario where almost anyone could be given them. The fact X-23's healing factor isn't affected since only her claws are bonded means that his healing abilities would NOT be a barrier. By making the claws part of his anatomy, it makes them even MORE uniquely his (and his family's, but it still requires some sort of relation).
    Still hoping for that Helix Reunion...

    The New X-Men: Can't let you grow up because you make everyone look old. But we can sure as @#$% mindlessly kill you off for shock value!

    Pull List: Fallen Angels (For Now)

  4. #109
    Incredible Member GylT'Nav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    552

    Default






  5. #110
    Incredible Member GylT'Nav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    552

    Default






  6. #111

  7. #112
    Incredible Member GylT'Nav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    552

    Default




  8. #113
    Mighty Member Hush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    1,515

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    I disagree about the bone claws. IMO it's the idea that the claws were ALSO implants that weakens the concept because (as with the original concept where the claws were part of his gloves) it creates a scenario where almost anyone could be given them
    Not necessarily, the claws itself could have been implanted in Logan's body but the healing factor is what makes the whole thing work, same thing with the skeleton, it makes him unique (at least before the 00s) and not only it doesn't weaken the concept, it makes the concept of Wolverine being a living weapon even better which also gives the scenes where Logan understand what the Weapon X project did to him a greater emotional impact in my opinion.

    When you read the original Weapon X story, you can see that the whole thing wasn't natural and that basically it required several surgeries on Logan's forearm and hands just to make sure he wouldn't bleed to death when he was popping his claws. You couldn't implement those claws on everyone, they could potentially die and even if you succeed it could be fatal to them on the long term if they don't have any healing factor.



    The claws being a creation of men, was also something that haunted Logan for years, he had trouble living with those claws:



    It also made the confrontation between Wolverine and Sabretooth even better as Sabretooth's claws were natural making him the "real deal" while Wolverine's claws were man-made making Wolverine the underdog during their fights:



    So yeah in my opinion, saying he already had them before the experiment just cheapen the whole thing and especially previous stories where Logan tried to live with what the Weapon X did to him and his transformation into a living weapon.

    The fact X-23's healing factor isn't affected since only her claws are bonded means that his healing abilities would NOT be a barrier.
    Regarding X-23 and her healing, Bullseye had adamantium bonded to his spine and he never had any problem with his health despite not having any healing factor. Small quantities of adamantium are maybe not dangerous to the health of a character for all we know.

    By making the claws part of his anatomy, it makes them even MORE uniquely his (and his family's, but it still requires some sort of relation).
    But saying he has bone claws as part of his anatomy also creates the scenario that each 5 years a mysterious character related to Logan will pop up with the same powers and claws, you keep going that way and you're going to end up with too many Wolverine knockoffs running around which is going to dillute the appeal of the character.

    Besides, I'm not sure how you could say that his bone claws makes him or his "family" unique, since other characters not related to him also have the same kind of natural "bone claws" such as Marrow, the Native (who also has the same healing factor), Carver and many others. In the past I would have agreed about the Wolverine family being unique when only Wolverine & X-23 existed but seriously I don't think you can tell there is still anything unique about them when it comes to their powers nowadays.
    Last edited by Hush; 01-24-2020 at 07:15 AM.

  9. #114
    Mighty Member Hush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    1,515

    Default

    Thank you for the images GylT'Nav! It looks really good

    Two more shots from the trailer:





    Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/agentfitz...33585456517122

  10. #115
    Incredible Member GylT'Nav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hush View Post
    Not necessarily, the claws itself could have been implanted in Logan's body but the healing factor is what makes the whole thing work, same thing with the skeleton, it mamkes him unique (at least before the 00s) and not only it doesn't weaken the concept, it makes the concept of Wolverine being a living weapon even better which also gives the scenes where Logan understand what the Weapon X project did to him a greater emotional impact in my opinion.

    When you read the original Weapon X story, you can see that the whole thing wasn't natural and that basically it required several surgeries on Logan's forearm and hands just to make sure he wouldn't bleed to death when he was popping his claws. You couldn't implement those claws on everyone, they could potentially die and even if you succeed it could be fatal to them on the long term if they don't have any healing factor.



    The claws being a creation of men, was also something that haunted Logan for years, he had trouble living with those claws:



    It also made the confrontation between Wolverine and Sabretooth even better as Sabretooth's claws were natural making him the "real deal" while Wolverine's claws were man-made making Wolverine the underdog during their fights:



    So yeah in my opinion, saying he already had them before the experiment just cheapen the whole thing and especially previous stories where Logan tried to live with what the Weapon X did to him and his transformation into a living weapon.



    Regarding X-23 and her healing, Bullseye had adamantium bonded to his spine and he never had any problem with his health despite not having any healing factor. Small quantities of adamantium are maybe not dangerous to the health of a character for all we know.



    But saying he has bone claws as part of his anatomy also creates the scenario that each 5 years a mysterious character related to Logan will pop up with the same powers and claws, you keep going that way and you're going to end up with too many Wolverine knockoffs running around which is going to dillute the appeal of the character.

    Besides, I'm not sure how you could say that his bone claws makes him or his "family" unique, since other characters not related to him also have the same kind of natural "bone claws" such as Marrow, the Native (who also has the same healing factor), Carver and many others. In the past I would have agreed about the Wolverine family being unique when only Wolverine & X-23 existed but seriously I don't think you can tell there is still anything unique about them when it comes to their powers nowadays.

    Well written and so true!
    For me, it has nothing to do with his claws being unique. They are cool, yes, but what makes him really unique is what was done to him and how he carries himself after he survived the horrors due to his healing abilities. That really matters for his story ...a lifelong fight for his humanity. This is what makes Wolverine unique, his livelong fight for humanity, IMO.
    As I was introduced to Wolverine, this story stood out for me, the weapon x story. This was one of the many reasons I became a fan of Logan. He was abducted, experimented on, dehumanised, turned into a living weapon. They created the monster. They made him into one by stripping his humanity away. A livelong burden he has to fight even as he regained some of his humanity.
    I share you view on this point: Implanting him with those claws makes the horror he endured more grave, the idea that they turned a man into a into a living switchblade! (This also holds to Ultimate Wolverine as well, the switchblade comparison is made by Ultimate Colossus! )
    I personally have made my peace with the concept of the bone claws, Beeing more driven by animal instincts makes no lesser human, if one know how to handle it. Claws and animals senses makes no monster. Human abuse and tampering did.
    But the claws being a part of his mutation weakens the impact of the amazing story of Weapon X!
    Last edited by GylT'Nav; 01-24-2020 at 07:53 AM.

  11. #116
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Venezuela
    Posts
    6,843

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hush View Post
    It’s from X-Men Vol 2 #191 by Mike Carey & Clayton Henry. Yeah it would make sense, but something is strange with Serafina, as people noted in the X-Men #5 preview thread, she doesn’t seem to possess all of her powers, so maybe that’s why she's running away from Wolverine, she may not be able to do the same trick again.

    In any case, Logan shouldn’t pop his claws around her, just to be sure lol.



    There are two Origin mini, the first one released in 2001 was written by Paul Jenkins, Joe Quesada, Bill Jemas and was penciled by Andy Kubert. The follow-up to this story, Origin II was released in 2014 and was written by Kieron Gillen and was penciled by Adam Kubert.

    The Origin complete collection oversized hardcover collects those two miniseries:

    https://www.amazon.com/Wolverine-Com...s%2C287&sr=8-1

    I’m going to be honest with you, I’m not a big fan of those two minis (especially the first one) for several reasons but mostly because the first Origin mini had a bad impact on the character and paved the way for horrible stories that butchered Wolverine’s history during the 00s.

    With that said, the first Origin mini isn’t a bad story on its own (too cliché though) but as the “official origins" of Wolverine, it’s not good in my opinion. When you read this story, it feels like the writers established a checklist and tried to work their way around it, you got the redhead fetish, the missing memory, the claws, the human/animal duality, the name Wolverine, the figure of authority, the love triangle, the mention of samurai, why Logan calls everyone "bub" and of course you also have the Sabretooth look-alike.

    By doing what they did with this story, Marvel just demystified the character, they reduced him to another hero who became who he is after a traumatic event in his childhood and who will always repeat the same patterns from his past which is sad since the character used to be much more interesting than that. That’s a problem when you try to give an origin to a character years after his creation, it rarely works because those characters were never defined by their origins in the first place and in the case of Wolverine it's even worst, since the mystery surrounding the character was part of his personality, part of his "DNA".

    As Chris Claremont once said about Wolverine: “The less we know about him, the better”.


    Beyond giving Wolverine an unneeded new name, this story oversimplifies several aspects of Logan’s personality and powers, such as saying that he was born with the bone claws and was always an animal which adds nothing to the character, even worse it cheapens the impact of the Weapon X experiment in my opinion. I think it was much more interesting before the release of Origin that Logan was just a man whose only power was his healing factor (which as a side effect enhanced his senses and his physical attributes) before the Weapon X experiment, and that basically the Weapon X program took this mysterious “immortal” man and turned him into a weapon by giving him an unbreakable skeleton and those claws.

    It makes the whole experiment even more messed up and even more traumatizing especially when you see what happened the first time Logan unleashed his adamantium claws. In my opinion, those claws were basically a symbol of the whole inhumanity of this experiment and how the Weapon X program destroyed a man, reduced him to an animal and in the end turned him into a monster.

    Origin II is better written (at least the first issue) but in the end, this story serves as an excuse to have Logan "goes back to the civilized world" and to give an explanation behind the Wolverine/Sabretooth feud which wasn't needed. The story was referenced recently during the Ruins of Ravencroft: Sabretooth one shot though.


    TL;DR: Sorry for the long rant lol, but to answer your question, try to read the first Origin mini since it’s still the official story of Wolverine’s origins for now, you can still find it in tpb or OHC, but if you want to read a better origin story for Wolverine in OHC just wait for the Wolverine Omnibus Vol.1 reprint, it will collect the Weapon X story by Barry Windsor Smith which is a much better story and the only origin story Wolverine ever needed in my opinion.

    The Omnibus also collects several fantastic Wolverine stories, and among them one story (Wolverine Vol.2 #10) written by Chris Claremont and penciled by Bill Sienkiewicz which was for a long time the origin story behind the feud between Wolverine and Sabretooth and which is a much better story than what Gillen tried to do with Origin II.

    Hope that helps!
    Origin II was kind of weird to be honest, but the artwork was cool and thw first issue was decent, probably because it didn't have any dialogue. Still is the weirdest way to start the Creed/Logan feud.

    And of course there is Origins by Daniel Way wich was....well we know how that turned out to be lol.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

    "I am Thou, Thou Art I"
    Persona

  12. #117
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Venezuela
    Posts
    6,843

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GylT'Nav View Post
    Well written and so true!
    For me, it has nothing to do with his claws being unique. They are cool, yes, but what makes him really unique is what was done to him and how he carries himself after he survived the horrors due to his healing abilities. That really matters for his story ...a lifelong fight for his humanity. This is what makes Wolverine unique, his livelong fight for humanity, IMO.
    As I was introduced to Wolverine, this story stood out for me, the weapon x story. This was one of the many reasons I became a fan of Logan. He was abducted, experimented on, dehumanised, turned into a living weapon. They created the monster. They made him into one by stripping his humanity away. A livelong burden he has to fight even as he regained some of his humanity.
    I share you view on this point: Implanting him with those claws makes the horror he endured more grave, the idea that they turned a man into a into a living switchblade! (This also holds to Ultimate Wolverine as well, the switchblade comparison is made by Ultimate Colossus! )
    I personally have no problems with the concept of the bone claws. Beeing more driven by animal instincts makes no lesser human, if one know how to handle it. Claws and animals senses makes no monster. Human abuse and tampering did.
    But the claws being a part of his mutation weakens the impact of the amazing story of Weapon X!
    I'm more or less in the same mindset, originally i didn't mind the bone claws, but i think that the Weapon X story is a lot better when includes such horrific and forced alteration on his body.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

    "I am Thou, Thou Art I"
    Persona

  13. #118
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Venezuela
    Posts
    6,843

    Default

    Nice post Gyl, thanks. It looks good although because of the artwork, i'm still can't avoid remembering Night of the Owls lol
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

    "I am Thou, Thou Art I"
    Persona

  14. #119
    Incredible Member GylT'Nav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Origin II was kind of weird to be honest, but the artwork was cool and thw first issue was decent, probably because it didn't have any dialogue. Still is the weirdest way to start the Creed/Logan feud.

    And of course there is Origins by Daniel Way wich was....well we know how that turned out to be lol.
    Origins by Daniel Way is a abomination imo!!! I ignore it!
    Origin is ok, as a isolated story, but the true original story for Wolverine is Weapon X for me, it is all that counts.
    Last edited by GylT'Nav; 01-24-2020 at 09:59 AM.

  15. #120
    Incredible Member GylT'Nav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Nice post Gyl, thanks. It looks good although because of the artwork, i'm still can't avoid remembering Night of the Owls lol
    So I am at a clear advantage here, because Old Man Logan by Jeff Lemire was the first comic I ever picked up and reading Wolverine, X-23, Immortal Hulk, Venom and X men ever since then!
    Last edited by GylT'Nav; 01-24-2020 at 08:12 AM.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •