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  1. #631
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    The city nor Nightwing is the problem. The creative vision is. Bludhaven is a symptom, not a cause. It exists to felicitate a traditional format that makes it more convenient for them to produce quick and easy content in a factory like manner.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-23-2020 at 05:22 PM.

  2. #632
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    On the list of things that make Nightwing seem like batman lite bludhaven is no 1052.
    On the list of things that lead to him being treated like a batman supporting character 'The actual root of all the characters issues and the thing that holds him back' bludhaven isn't even a factor.

    Bludhaven makes zero difference to him being close to the Bat Ip. Nightwing a non-powered costumed hero is always going to share to similarities with Batman.
    All the Bat characters are pretty much Batman lite including the metas and the 'anti heroes'

    Red Robin doesn't have a city yet it's more batman like than Nightwing has ever been

    The city isn't the issue.

    Nightwing is.

    Agent 37 was the sweet spot but I don't know how marketable in the long term that is.
    I want saying it's bludhaven that makes nightwing into batman lite (it doesn't help). I ment was that bludhavens problems are the same as nightwing's to close and similar to what its spinning off of.

    Yes nightwing and batman will have similarities and they should, batman WAS (not is) his mentor. But being similar and too similar.

    Just have him be agent 37 as nightwing. Meaning agent 37 style missions and tone but as nightwing.

  3. #633
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    In my mind I truly believe nightwing has the potential stand side by side the trinity.

    Nightwing being the face/lead of DC's espionage corner. Grayson showed that it works for dick, just have him do grayson but as nightwing instead of agent 37.

    I just don't see nightwing reaching his potential as someone else's supporting character.

  4. #634
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    True. It should be how Bludhaven works. How similar and should it be. Any idea?
    SOOOOOooooooo many ideas. I humbly suggest taking a look at the "pitch a direction" thread, for more of my ideas than anyone wants, as well as a remarkable amount of genius from many of our fellow wingnuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Agent 37 was the sweet spot but I don't know how marketable in the long term that is.
    Exactly as it was, without the "Nightwing" name or costume, with everyone thinking Dick was dead? Probably not very marketable long term. But a few minor tweaks to the Spyral status quo, where Dick hasn't faked his death and is still somehow using the superhero code name and costume? Now you've got Nightwing: DC's premier Super Spy. And that is, I believe, a very marketable premise in the long term. More marketable than Black Widow or Nick Fury, easily. Just take a look at what Young Justice season 3 did with Dick (especially early on), that's not too far off the mark of what such a direction could be. And that seems very popular.
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  5. #635
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Bludhaven is a big problem. Even setting aside the issues with how it forces writers to write him as some Batman-lite city protector character it isn't this harmless thing that people are making it out to be. It is actually a very damaging place that brings negative value to Dick's character and stories. How it does this is first by isolating his character. It forces him out of the DCU and puts him in a place that has no value. Even having him just operating out of Gotham give his character far more utility, imo. It is going on 25 years now since Bludhaven has been created and it has failed to produce anything substantial across many different writers. Probably more than 150 issues set there and not one thing from those stories has been able to become something readers can point to as being vital to Dick's character. That isn't some fluke.

    Continuing to force him and his stories to be set there severely limits what writers can do because you are forcing them to write in a setting that they have to fight against to produce a good story. They have to format it to fit in this place that brings no value to the table. Now isolation isn't necessarily bad. If Bludhaven was this amazing place (it never will be) then I'm all for wanting more stories there, but it isn't. It also doesn't even protect Dick's character from being dragged into Justice League or Gotham events, and no events or bigger stories are coming from Bludhaven. No writer looks at Bludhaven and is excited to write about it when there are so many more interesting things in DC.

    It doesn't matter how you dress it up. You can make it an even darker Gotham or as bright as Las Vegas. You can give Dick any number of careers there too. It doesn't matter. That is just putting a fresh coat of paint on a house with a rotten foundation. It will never work because the setting is fundamentally broken. 2 years, 5 years, or 10 years from now Bludhaven will still be exactly what it is now with readers arguing over how it should be "fixed", but it will never be fixed because it can't be.

    I've said this many times, but it needs to be repeated because of how important it is. Dick wasn't born in Bludhaven, he wasn't raised in Bludhaven, none of his family is from Bludhaven, he didn't create any of his superhero identities in Bludhaven, none of his major love interests are in or from Bludhaven, none of his friends or allies are in or from Bludhaven, no organizations or teams he is part of are from Bludhaven, and he doesn't have any long running career that ties him to Bludhaven. There are probably even more I am forgetting. I can't think of another major character from the Big Two publishers were they are forced into a setting for years and years where all these major things are completely absent as well. It is insane to me how people cling to it as a setting when all these vital things that are at the core of superheros and superhero stories are completely missing from it.

  6. #636
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    Bludhaven is not a conscious being. Its not what isolates him, its their chosen setting in which they have chosen to isolate him in. Its not what is forcing him out of DC. Bludhaven is there to facilitate more convenient production. It doesn't matter where they put him to tell traditional gotta protect my city or neighborhood directions. Created and made famous with the likes of Batman and Superman. No matter where they put him, they stick to same traditional formats he gonna come off like other traditional superheros. Bluhaven is just the result of DC's desire to do the bare minimum with Nightwing. Its silly to inherently blame Bludhaven for boring traditional stories, by boring traditional creators. Bludhaven lasted one creator before the next one tried to do a Born Again. Bludhaven was ok at first with Dixon, cause it was the first time we seen a solo Nightwing, but that wore off by the second creator trying a Born Again like attempt. Even when it comes to Seeley's run, he made Bludhaven more interesting to look at, but it was clear he wasn't really interested in that traditional format. So its not that Bludhaven is the problem causing this, not that its isn't a trap, but even Bludhaven is just a direct result of how DC views Nightwing and there limited creative vision for the character.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-23-2020 at 08:44 PM.

  7. #637
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Bludhaven is a big problem. Even setting aside the issues with how it forces writers to write him as some Batman-lite city protector character it isn't this harmless thing that people are making it out to be. It is actually a very damaging place that brings negative value to Dick's character and stories. How it does this is first by isolating his character. It forces him out of the DCU and puts him in a place that has no value. Even having him just operating out of Gotham give his character far more utility, imo. It is going on 25 years now since Bludhaven has been created and it has failed to produce anything substantial across many different writers. Probably more than 150 issues set there and not one thing from those stories has been able to become something readers can point to as being vital to Dick's character. That isn't some fluke.

    Continuing to force him and his stories to be set there severely limits what writers can do because you are forcing them to write in a setting that they have to fight against to produce a good story. They have to format it to fit in this place that brings no value to the table. Now isolation isn't necessarily bad. If Bludhaven was this amazing place (it never will be) then I'm all for wanting more stories there, but it isn't. It also doesn't even protect Dick's character from being dragged into Justice League or Gotham events, and no events or bigger stories are coming from Bludhaven. No writer looks at Bludhaven and is excited to write about it when there are so many more interesting things in DC.

    It doesn't matter how you dress it up. You can make it an even darker Gotham or as bright as Las Vegas. You can give Dick any number of careers there too. It doesn't matter. That is just putting a fresh coat of paint on a house with a rotten foundation. It will never work because the setting is fundamentally broken. 2 years, 5 years, or 10 years from now Bludhaven will still be exactly what it is now with readers arguing over how it should be "fixed", but it will never be fixed because it can't be.

    I've said this many times, but it needs to be repeated because of how important it is. Dick wasn't born in Bludhaven, he wasn't raised in Bludhaven, none of his family is from Bludhaven, he didn't create any of his superhero identities in Bludhaven, none of his major love interests are in or from Bludhaven, none of his friends or allies are in or from Bludhaven, no organizations or teams he is part of are from Bludhaven, and he doesn't have any long running career that ties him to Bludhaven. There are probably even more I am forgetting. I can't think of another major character from the Big Two publishers were they are forced into a setting for years and years where all these major things are completely absent as well. It is insane to me how people cling to it as a setting when all these vital things that are at the core of superheros and superhero stories are completely missing from it.
    Amen brother! Also look at outside media, people talk about titans and young justice etc. There not story's of him in bludhaven no there story's of nightwing with other heros fighting thought out the dcu.

  8. #638
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean just because he wasn't raised in Bludhaven doesn't mean he can't make connections in that city. Clark was raised in Kanas but moved to Metropolis. In one way maybe Dick should just be a Private Detective. He travels a lot or he joins a circus. They still exist but these are acrobats. The only issue is stable for the environment. So the Cirus will have to work. Or somewhere he travels a lot. Now sadly the issue becomes still we need to put him in a Batman comic so he can be traveling. He needs a job that can let him travel and be flexible so a PI is good. He doesn't need to be in Bludhaven. He can have an APT but he isn't in there but doing other things.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 02-23-2020 at 08:37 PM.

  9. #639
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Bludhaven is a big problem. .......
    How it does this is first by isolating his character. It forces him out of the DCU

    It also doesn't even protect Dick's character from being dragged into Justice League or Gotham events
    I'm confused. Does it isolate him and keep him out of the DCU or not?

    I don't get you and your hate for that city man. I feel like you're blaming a symptom for a cause. I mean, I get it, Bludhaven has suffered from the same lack of consistency and quality that has plagued Dick for years now. It has not been a well developed setting and Dick being the protector of a single city isn't exactly a novel concept. But it's not the problem. Dick's stories were no better when he was in Chicago were they? And after Infinite Crisis I think it might've been New York for a while right? Stories weren't better then either, as I recall. Dick was in Gotham for the New52, and the stories didn't improve because of it.

    I mean, it's cool. I can't blame ya. I just don't get it.
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  10. #640
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    WHat's bad about Dick being put in JL events? Almost every character has often been in JL events at one point already. And plus Dick is still important to Batfam. So he would kind of need to be put in certain events. I mean any trope can work. Bludhaven needs to match Dick completely rewritten or he would have to at least move to Gotham

    In general, his city or anywhere Dick is living needs to have some elements dealing with the entertainment industry. I mean due to his background the area should be more well known its industry.

  11. #641
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Bludhaven is not a conscious being. Its not what isolates him, its their chosen setting in which they have chosen to isolate him in. Its not what is forcing him out of DC. Bludhaven is there to facilitate more convenient production. It doesn't matter where they put him to tell traditional gotta protect my city or neighborhood directions. Created and made famous with the likes of Batman and Superman. No matter where they put him, they stick to same traditional formats he gonna come off like other traditional superheros. Bluhaven is just the result of DC's desire to do the bare minimum with Nightwing. Its silly to inherently blame Bludhaven for boring traditional stories, by boring traditional creators. Bludhaven lasted one creator before the next one tried to do a Born Again. Bludhaven was ok at first with Dixon, cause it was the first time we seen a solo Nightwing, but that wore off by the second creator trying a Born Again like attempt. Even when it comes to Seeley's run, he made Bludhaven more interesting to look at, but it was clear he wasn't really interested in that traditional format. So its not that Bludhaven is the problem, not that its isn't a trap, but even Bludhaven is just a direct result of how DC views Nightwing and there limited creative vision for the character.
    You are correct in what Bludhaven was created to be. It was meant to serve as setting for traditional hero stories and Dixon did a basic and fine job for a character that was was coming out of an awful Titans series and had never been a solo character before. There was nothing to compare it to, but we are 25 years removed from that. Many other creators have come in and written Bludhaven stories and none have been able to produce anything where it feels integral to the character. How many more writers have to come in and fail to do anything substantial before we are ready to move on and say that maybe Bludhaven is an issue and not the lack of effort by the creators?

    It feels like a sunk cost fallacy to me. Readers have this attachment to this city because of the previous 150 issues and think that if you just change this, add that, and invest even more time there it will suddenly work, but it never will. You have all those major problems I mentioned previously, but this is where Bludhaven becomes not just a symptom but a negative asset or a liability to the character. Bludhaven isn't a setting that inspires creators to want to write there. No writer is excited to dip their toes into Bludhaven and explore it. It becomes an actual deterrent from attracting writers to the character if Dick is stuck and isolated in a setting that they don't have an interest in. That is a big problem. Maybe that is why we get such uninspired stories there.

    I think we have already reached that point. You had Seeley who if given the choice would not have wanted to set his Nightwing run in Bludhaven, but he was forced to if he wanted to write Nightwing and some look at his run as the best Bludhaven run Nightwing had. Think about how much better his run could have been if he was allowed to use a setting that he wanted?

    As Nightwing Dick's never had a setting other than Bludhaven for more than 20 something issues, right? So it isn't like they planted their flag anywhere else to really test to see if Bludhaven is a problem or not. I mean we both enjoyed the Spyral run and the spy setting. Had they explored that more even with Dick going back to Nightwing maybe that could have built into something interesting. Something where creators, maybe even prominent creators, feel like they want to sink their teeth into that world and write stories there, but I don't see Bludhaven ever being that.

  12. #642
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    Nightwing should be a spy — Agent 37 but in costume and as Nightwing — for Batman Inc, which he runs with Wayne funding but not direct oversight by Bruce. There are some secrets that Nightwing keeps even from Batman.

    Tonally, Nightwing should not be Batman-lite. Setting-wise, he should not be tied to a Gotham-lite/dark.

    He should be more like Booster Gold or Harley Quinn. I was thinking at first this might be too sci-fi for him but I think it fits really well, actually — Nightwing should have some kind of spy-tech that allows him to teleport. Teleporting is a weirder thing than most Batman adventures, so it sets Nightwing apart, and it allows him to be flexible and acroabtic — leaping from one place to another through portal/teleportation tech.

    It's not a motherbox, or Skeets, but something a bit more low-tech hi-tech, like a portable watch version of the JLA teleporter. The teleporter should be a bit slow and janky, frequently breaks, as does a lot of his equipment, which serves both to up the stakes and give Nightwing comical problems. "Of course I get the hand-me-down tech." Superman and The Flash can still arrive at a situation faster than Nightwing can teleport, but he'd be able to show up faster than the Bat-plane.

  13. #643
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    But the whole point was not be funded by Bruce so that can be an issue. It depends on how much influence Bruce has.The more I think about it. Didn't Nightwing have a career in Harley Cirus? Why not DIck make his own spy or rather something similar to that? THan again are the titans kind of like?

  14. #644
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'm confused. Does it isolate him and keep him out of the DCU or not?

    I don't get you and your hate for that city man. I feel like you're blaming a symptom for a cause. I mean, I get it, Bludhaven has suffered from the same lack of consistency and quality that has plagued Dick for years now. It has not been a well developed setting and Dick being the protector of a single city isn't exactly a novel concept. But it's not the problem. Dick's stories were no better when he was in Chicago were they? And after Infinite Crisis I think it might've been New York for a while right? Stories weren't better then either, as I recall. Dick was in Gotham for the New52, and the stories didn't improve because of it.

    I mean, it's cool. I can't blame ya. I just don't get it.
    You misunderstood my post. I'll explain it a bit more. Basically I was implying that when he is in Bludhaven because it holds no real value to the character, since all his more important connections and relationships are outside of Bludhaven, he gets cut off from things readers actually want to see more of, but then if Bludhaven was actually this good thing for the character it could serve as a place to protect him from bad stories he is dragged into outside of it if he is stuck in Bludhaven. Like how Batman has his Gotham stories that are mostly separate from his non Gotham stories where you don't have to worry about what is going on in the JL, but Bludhaven isn't a strong enough setting to protect Dick from that. He gets dragged back into Gotham if they need to throw him under the bus for something. So even after decades of stories it isn't like Bludhaven is any better than most of these other one off settings Dick has had.

    And none of those other settings were that long. I think the NYC run was the longest at maybe under 30 issues? So it isn't like he has a large sample size in other settings as Nigthwing to really see how it goes. I do know that after 150+ issues in Bludhaven we are still having the same conversations about it that we've had for years or decades. Maybe after another 5 or 10 years of forgettable Bludhaven stories more people will start flipping to my side.
    Last edited by Badou; 02-23-2020 at 10:38 PM.

  15. #645
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    One thing I wonder. What do you guys think about the fact Dick is basically the go-to guy for all the Batfam to rant about? He is literally the glue. Bruce even goes to him at times. For the most part Dick understands Bruce has found out secrets. I honestly most has Dick even broke down? HE literally has the wait of the whole family at times.

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