Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[AmiMizuno]

Overall how popular is Grayson by DC fans?

[Ascended]

I enjoy how Dick comes back in that universe, fwiw.

I never read the tie-ins. How'd he come back? It never happens in the game itself, unless you count Cyborg's ending.....and that's not Dick, that's an abomination.

Overall how popular is Grayson by DC fans?

Impossible to know. We don't have the kind of data we'd need to even make a guess. But he seems to be popular enough; his book is rarely in cancellation and is (when Ric isn't happening) a consistent mid-tier seller that outsells and out-lasts most anything that isn't League related (or Harley, gods that woman makes money!). He's used in a lot of larger media stuff as either Robin or Nightwing. He's maybe not A-list in the truest sense of the word, but I feel like he's easily B-list.

One thing that's hard to separate is Dick's popularity as his own character, and the popularity of Robin. Robin is of course, a much, much bigger brand with global recognition, while Dick as Nightwing is not on that level. But without any kind of evidence of any kind, just looking at the play Dick gets (cartoons, live action, etc etc etc) I don't think popularity with fans is his problem. Popularity with management might be, but it seems like, as far as fans go, everyone loves Dick.

[Jackalope89]

Popularity with management might be, but it seems like, as far as fans go, everyone loves Dick.

Puns aside, among hardcore comic book fans, most people like him. Even those of other comic book companies. Even more casual fans of say, BTAS, Teen Titans, Young Justice, Titans, and Batman 66 all like him (though, the Titans run has had some stuff that made people call Dick, well, a dick).

But it does seem that it's management in the comic books side that has problems with him. And one in particular has even gloated abut the awful things done to Dick, so, yeah.

[AmiMizuno]

Why does Dc have issues with him?

[Jackalope89]

Why does Dc have issues with him?

Mainly because he, "ages Bruce Wayne, and thus the other main League members as Dick grows older."

[Godlike13]

I never read the tie-ins. How'd he come back? It never happens in the game itself, unless you count Cyborg's ending.....and that's not Dick, that's an abomination.

He takes over for Deadman. As dumb as the rock death was, even I have to admit that was a pretty cool move.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, don't Deadman and Dick have similar origins, both being circus acrobats? They were even paired up in a Flashpoint tie-in.

[Rac7d*]

Mainly because he, "ages Bruce Wayne, and thus the other main League members as Dick grows older."

No he ages batman supes and wonderwoman dot age normal, but Bruce is a man who they won’t put down

[cc008]

I never read the tie-ins. How'd he come back? It never happens in the game itself, unless you count Cyborg's ending.....and that's not Dick, that's an abomination.

He takes over for Deadman. As dumb as the rock death was, even I have to admit that was a pretty cool move.

Yes, this ^

Death was stupid, but in the comic by Taylor, this is how he comes back. Somewhat makes up for his death. Not totally, but *shrug*

[Digifiend]

DC Collectibles has announced it's latest products - and that it's reverting back to it's original name DC Direct. And among them is Nightwing!
https://www.newsarama.com/49133-dc-c...r-line-up.html

[Restingvoice]

Why does Dc have issues with him?

DC considers the Justice League to be the main characters of DCU, and as the main character, they want them to be in their prime. Middle-age, experienced, inspiring, strong and relatable.

The Titans generation, including Dick, are younger versions of them. Same power set, but with more relatable characterization. They're friends who grew up together, so they have more fun, warmth, and friendship. They're YA stories' main characters, and YA is VERY popular in other media. Hunger Games, Twilight, Teen Wolf, Riverdale, Supernatural... note that while most of those stories are set in high school, the actors are the hot 20-something, even 30. The type of their target audience, teens, fantasize.

So they're a threat to DC's concept of main characters, and they did try to make the League generations young and hot in New 52 and get rid of the Titans except for the one they can't. Superman's 25, Wonder Woman's 23, Catwoman's 23, and Batman's only 31 because they have to accommodate the popular Robins, if Robins aren't popular, you can bet they would've made him 25 too, but 31 is young enough. Some of YA actors are 30-somethings.

Note that the League as main characters work just fine if the Titans don't exist, like the Justice League cartoon, because it's not like the League isn't friendly to each other or not relatable... but Titans are defined by growing up together, something the League never have.

So when it comes to warmth and friendship the League will look colder and more professional by comparison, which is a double-edged sword too. Titans are taken less seriously than the League because they're more like a clubhouse in comparison. Also, sometimes DC themselves like to play this League vs Titans thing as professional vs friendship. That's your own fault, dude. Make something else.

There's also the branding, and trying to maintain that brand. The League is the most known characters of DC if you don't count the Batfam, and they should be the focal point of DCU if you wanna be fair to the general DCU superhero, otherwise, you just use all the Batfam, but being the face is not the same as being the most likable. The Queen is the symbol of Britain, but people like Prince Harry a lot more.

DC wants them to be both the symbol, and the relatable, but relatability isn't exactly something you can arrange, especially the way they did it. They made the sidekicks grew up, realize they're more likable once they grew up, and then try to force those elements into the older gen. I cringed the first time I saw The Flash in tv series and Snyder's League movie because the actors and performers are so obviously more fitting to be Wally.

...and I don't know how to end this overly long tangent so there.

[Digifiend]

The Queen is the symbol of Britain, but people like Prince Harry a lot more.

Used to. Harry and Meghan recently quit their royal duties, which many see as a betrayal. That will have hurt his popularity, big time. William and Kate are the hot commodity now.

[Ascended]

Why does Dc have issues with him?

On top of what others have said, I think DC not only considers the NTT totally redundant, but can't figure out what role they *could* fill. The League are the biggest and best heroes, the ones you hope show up when things get bad. Then there's the sidekicks, Tim and Conner (and now Damian and Jon) and their role as "kids learning the ropes" or at least "young heroes short of their prime" is a well entrenched troupe. Everyone in comics are familiar with sidekicks.

So where does that leave the NTT? They can't be the best of the best because the League are the bigger, more popular IP's and can't be replaced. They can't still be sidekicks, because we've got younger characters who fill that role, and the NTT are too experienced to really sell the "young heroes not yet in their prime" very easily. So what do you do with Dick and Donna and Wally, etc? Where do they fit in DC's very strictly structured and enforced pantheon? DC can't figure out that answer.

And DC may also consider these guys a potential threat to the sales of the big guns (Im just guessing on that). Way back in the day NTT was DC's best seller, and those heroes are younger, hotter versions of the League. What could happen if they put an A-list creative team on Nightwing, or a NTT reunion book caught a second wind? Would Batman readers drop the Batman title for a quality Nightwing? Or the League for a good Titans reunion title? That could cost DC money. That's even more true for Wally, who *did* replace his mentor for over twenty years and built a large fanbase of his own.

So Dick became the new Deadman in Injustice, huh? That's.....kinda cool, in its way.

Oh hey, Dropkickjake, if you see this your inbox is full man, I can't send you a reply.

[AmiMizuno]

I mean any good writer can make Titans work. If anything can’t they work more like mentors? That’s one of the reasons why they didn’t want to be sidekicks anymore.

[Ascended]

They've tried the "mentors" thing with the Titans before, and haven't had much success with it. Which is fine by me, I don't see "teaching" as a viable long-term choice for the NTT. Honestly, almost nothing seems to move the sales needle though. Johns was able to make the book sell back in 00's, but that was in the height of his popularity and other than that it seems like the book sells what it'll sell and damn little makes a difference.

Dick actually has the same kind of problem. Not as badly, but it takes a lot to make his book sell more (or less) than its average. The Grayson series sold noticeably better at first, and I maintain that if the title had remained "Nightwing" and if Dick had worn his costume instead of a generic covert/paramilitary outfit it would've sold even more. But outside of A+ (or F-) effort like that, Dick sells what he'll sell. Not the worst thing in the world at all, but it seems like DC has yet to find the magic pitch that'll send these IP's into higher rankings.