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  1. #1456
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    Don't know I have somehow the feeling that since Rebirth (or maybe even since DCYou) there is less control by the editorial and the continuity is even less clear than during the New52.

    At the moment as long as I don't see an age really consistently referenced, I see just as something the writer made up.
    Last edited by Aahz; 05-27-2020 at 02:15 AM.

  2. #1457
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Titans done wrong, done right Titans pivots away from Jr JL. As Nightwing should pivot from Jr Batman. As out of favor as it might be Titans still has more upside for Dick then JL would. Nightwing is in a weird position where being in the JL isn't going to bring with it a solo he doesn't already have. At best he'll get to stand around in events maybe, but even that is something he already does. And it would have no benefit outside of comics. Where they are telling the stories isn't really what matters but how they are telling the stories. The current creators on Ric pulled every Gotham resource they could. Whether borrowing toy's from Batman's toy box, or playing in Batman's toy box. Both equate to the same thing. As long as they have Nightwing try to emulate the same formulas he's going to come off as Batman-lite.
    What upside do the Titans have? When was the last good Nightwing Titans story? The only thing the Titans can offer up is being a team Dick can lead. If that is important to you then that is the team you will be stuck with. The same way Bludhaven offers up the chance for Dick to have his own city, but just like being stuck in Bludhaven him being in the Titans offers him far less actual functional opportunity for stories than the JL would even if he is in a lesser role in the JL. We have more than enough comic evidence to prove that out at this point. The Titans are never going to come close to recapturing their NTT era success and are a minor league team to the JL's major league one at this point. Two seasons of a live action Titans TV has lead to fuck all in the comics, so I don't care about how the comics effect other media at this point either. Dick going to the JL will have zero impact on how he is used in other media anyway, or really even effect his solo comic probably.

    It all comes down to what you want for the character. I don't care about Dick leading a team anymore. What I want is Dick to have some kind of proper role in the DCU. Where he is actually involved in big stories where his character feels important. You have so many big stories going on constantly and Dick is completely uninvolved or just used as fodder in them. That will never change unless the character is put in a better position to be properly involved and from what I can see that is the JL. Since that is where a lot of these stories spawn from or revolve around. I'm at the point where I don't even care about him leading these big DCU stories, but him being involved in the B or C plots of them would be a step up from where he is.

    As for the Bludhaven pulling characters from Gotham thing, I think that is a separate issue. That is more to do with Bludhaven being devoid of anything people actually care about and being unable to create or contain interesting elements itself independently because of how dull it is. So they have to drag villains from Gotham to try and elevate the Bludhaven stories more.

  3. #1458
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    For better or worse Titans is a franchise Dick can actually be prevalent in, in way he could never be with the JL. What functional opportunity do you think we would really see with the JL? More merchandising, or TV shows and movies appearances? B or C plots in event comics are worth far less then these kind of opportunities mind you. So do you really think being on the JL for a run, cause that is all it would ever be, is really going to create more opportunities or give him a role then being the face of the Titans will. Dick is already involved in B or C plots in events, like IC, FE, Metal. Not being part of the JL isn't why he isn’t given even more plots in events. Aquaman has been in the JL for forever and I can could count on one hand how many he’s actually been relevant in. Being in the JL isn’t even that big of a deal. Especially outside of the 7.

    And you still act like Bludhaven creates its own comics. As if it is responsible for the likes Lobdell or Jurgan’s being lazy creators. Filling up Bludhaven with interesting reusable elements is a process that takes more commitment and understanding then the creators they handed the book off too we’re willing to invest. You honestly think Lobdell tapped Scarecrow and Joker's Daughter because Bludhaven, or they had Jurgan's go to the Court well for like the 5th time cause there just isn't anything else more interesting. No, its just the same people trying to force the same shit over and over because its easier and safer to repeat and reuse what they are used to then put in the creative effort to actually develop something original or interesting. Its not Bludhaven's job to create, and its not a separate issue. At its core it comes down to editors and creators thinking let’s just have him emulate the same things Batman does, and lets just use proven Bat things. That’s quick and easy. Oh that didn't work, well lets do it again with other Bat thing. Abusing those same formulas they have been conditioned too, to make it easier for them to produce quick and cheap Nightwing content off the factory line. Not caring if any one actually cares about what they they are doing, but more that so and so had something to do. Putting him on the JL just further feeds into the idea of hey let’s just have home copy after Batman. And whether he is Gotham or Bludhaven, as long as that is the managing mentality it will result in the same shit. At this point Gotham vs Bludhaven is like arguing for Night of Owl and Death of the Family vs Year of the Villain and Joker War.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-27-2020 at 11:22 PM.

  4. #1459
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Okay, so Dick is part of the JL? This is one thing that I often wondered since they generally have him be more in TT. So if we go with Haley Circus do we want him to be the owner of it?
    I think "officially" Dick's on the reserve list. Or the "break in case of emergency" kit, anyway.

    But practically every adult hero is on one of those lists and Dick has only been called in two, maybe three times ever, so it doesn't mean much.

    And yes, I'd say Dick should own Haly's. Not just work there, own it. You want him to have a source of revenue? He's got one. You want him building his own foundation as a solo character? Haly's is about the only thing his IP truly owns. You want him to keep at least one foot in his Bat roots? This goes back to his Robin origin story. You want him to have a job he's naturally qualified for, that is entertaining and true to his character? This is literally the only job he's ever had other than "hero" that he was able to hold down for more than five minutes, and it's a circus/entertainment venue/casino/whatever update you wanna spin. Want him to have a job that doesn't interfere with his heroics? Dick owns the place, but someone else runs the day-to-day. You want him traveling a lot? Haly's goes on tours. You want him stationary? Haly's is set in one spot (Gotham or Bludhaven or Jump City or anywhere). Want him travel but have a home to go back to? Haly's does the occasional tour only, and Dick travels a lot searching for talent.

    It can be bright and fun for kid stories or have a seedy, dark underbelly for the more HBO minded. It can be left alone and ignored sort of like Wayne Enterprises often is, or it can be the focus of plots. It provides its own supporting cast, opportunity for guest stars from all corners of the DCU, it can be played as a street level affair with "standard" entertainments, or it can be more fantastical, with super human performers. Any story you can fit Dick into, you can fit Haly's.
    Last edited by Ascended; 05-27-2020 at 07:51 PM.
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  5. #1460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think "officially" Dick's on the reserve list. Or the "break in case of emergency" kit, anyway.

    But practically every adult hero is on one of those lists and Dick has only been called in two, maybe three times ever, so it doesn't mean much.

    And yes, I'd say Dick should own Haly's. Not just work there, own it. You want him to have a source of revenue? He's got one. You want him building his own foundation as a solo character? Haly's is about the only thing his IP truly owns. You want him to keep at least one foot in his Bat roots? This goes back to his Robin origin story. You want him to have a job he's naturally qualified for, that is entertaining and true to his character? This is literally the only job he's ever had other than "hero" that he was able to hold down for more than five minutes, and it's a circus/entertainment venue/casino/whatever update you wanna spin. Want him to have a job that doesn't interfere with his heroics? Dick owns the place, but someone else runs the day-to-day. You want him traveling a lot? Haly's goes on tours. You want him stationary? Haly's is set in one spot (Gotham or Bludhaven or Jump City or anywhere). Want him travel but have a home to go back to? Haly's does the occasional tour only, and Dick travels a lot searching for talent.

    It can be bright and fun for kid stories or have a seedy, dark underbelly for the more HBO minded. It can be left alone and ignored sort of like Wayne Enterprises often is, or it can be the focus of plots. It provides its own supporting cast, opportunity for guest stars from all corners of the DCU, it can be played as a street level affair with "standard" entertainments, or it can be more fantastical, with super human performers. Any story you can fit Dick into, you can fit Haly's.
    Sounds like the Kyle Higgins run

  6. #1461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Sounds like the Kyle Higgins run
    While What Ascended is talking about is a bit different than Higgins, Higgins DID have some good ideas that were poorly executed and interfered with so much they couldn’t succeed. Amusement Mike, for example, could have been great. Owning Haly’s could have been great. Trashing it all for Death in the Family... gosh the wasted potential there...

  7. #1462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    For better or worse Titans is a franchise Dick can actually be prevalent in, in way he could never be with the JL. What functional opportunity do you think we would really see with the JL? More merchandising, or TV shows and movies appearances? B or C plots in event comics are worth far less then these kind of opportunities mind you. So do you really think being on the JL for a run, cause that is all it would ever be, is really going to create more opportunities or give him a role then being the face of the Titans will. Dick is already involved in B or C plots in events, like IC, FE, Metal. Not being part of the JL isn't why he isnít given even more plots in events. Aquaman has been in the JL for forever and I can could count on one hand how many heís actually been relevant in. Being in the JL isnít even that big of a deal. Especially outside of the 7.
    I don't care about other media or merch opportunities. I simply want the character in a position to be involved in bigger and more relevant stories in the comics and I don't see the Titans as a path to that. The Justice League and their stories are the driving force behind the DCU and if you want to be involved in that you have to have more of a connection to those titles. It is that simple. It also isn't just event comics, but being involved in normal stories that feel like they have more weight to them. The Titans will never be that. Just look at what Starfire and Cyborg are doing in Justice League Odyssey with being able to interact with characters like Darkseid. Even that is beyond what the Titans book is capable of doing and that is a secondary or tertiary JL title. It is ridiculous how much the JL franchise dwarfs the Titans franchise in that regard. Plus the Titans franchise is always going to be split in half with the teens and characters like Robin taking a large amount of the focus. It just isn't this great opportunity for Nightwing. He will continue to be uninvolved in bigger stories, or will just be used as fodder to push Batman. That is what he is limited to now unless you reposition him in the DCU to get more opportunities and the best place for those opportunities is the JL franchise, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    And you still act like Bludhaven creates its own comics. As if it is responsible for the likes Lobdell or Jurganís being lazy creators. Filling up Bludhaven with interesting reusable elements is a process that takes more commitment and understanding then the creators they handed the book off too weíre willing to invest. You honestly think Lobdell tapped Scarecrow and Joker's Daughter because Bludhaven, or they had Jurgan's go to the Court well for like the 5th time cause there just isn't anything else more interesting. No, its just the same people trying to force the same shit over and over because its easier and safer to repeat and reuse what they are used to then put in the creative effort to actually develop something original or interesting. Its not Bludhaven's job to create, and its not a separate issue. At its core it comes down to editors and creators thinking letís just have him emulate the same things Batman does, and lets just use proven Bat things. Thatís quick and easy. Oh that didn't work, well lets do it again with other Bat thing. Abusing those same formulas they have been conditioned too, to make it easier for them to produce quick and cheap Nightwing content off the factory line. Not caring if any one actually cares about what they they are doing, but more that so and so had something to do. Putting him on the JL just further feeds into the idea of hey letís just have home copy after Batman. And whether he is Gotham or Bludhaven, as long as that is the managing mentality it will result in the same shit. At this point Gotham vs Bludhaven is like arguing for Night of Owl and Death of the Family vs Year of the Villain and Joker War.
    I think it is Bludhaven's job to help create. It is supposed to serve as a setting for inspiration. A place that creators want to create for and play around in, but it isn't interesting enough to be that. So they have to pull characters from actually interesting places to make up for it. So of course the creators are lazy too, but I don't think Bludhaven is innocent. It's been nearly 25 years since it was created and I think we know what it is at this point and it will never be this place that creators actually care about, but I've complained more than enough about Bludhaven at this point in these threads.

  8. #1463
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    I see there's some suggestion in this thread - https://community.cbr.com/showthread...on-DC-Universe - that Mark "I have begged, begged to be given Nightwing" Waid might have a DC project in the works.

    (Not suggesting it's hugely likely - but it's a nice thought in trying times.)

  9. #1464
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    I see there's some suggestion in this thread - https://community.cbr.com/showthread...on-DC-Universe - that Mark "I have begged, begged to be given Nightwing" Waid might have a DC project in the works.

    (Not suggesting it's hugely likely - but it's a nice thought in trying times.)
    I was just gonna post this.

    It'd be great for Waid to get Nightwing.

  10. #1465
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I was just gonna post this.

    It'd be great for Waid to get Nightwing.
    A world with Waid and Snyder working on Grayson projects at the same time would almost be worth waiting out Ric for.

  11. #1466
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Sounds like the Kyle Higgins run
    Kinda-sorta. But the point is that Haly's has the flexibility to be whatever the writer wants it to be. Higgins did what he did with it, but a Nightwing cartoon made for kids could make Haly's a bright and fun place full of cool sights and wonder. A more serious story could dive into the rough and tumble life these people lead where they aren't welcome or fit in anywhere outside their own little community.

    That's the real strength of Haly's as a concept; it can fit any kind of narrative structure for any audience.
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  12. #1467
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I was just gonna post this.

    It'd be great for Waid to get Nightwing.
    Considering Waid wrote a wonderful Daredevil run...yeah I would be all for him writing Nightwing.

  13. #1468
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think "officially" Dick's on the reserve list. Or the "break in case of emergency" kit, anyway.

    But practically every adult hero is on one of those lists and Dick has only been called in two, maybe three times ever, so it doesn't mean much.

    And yes, I'd say Dick should own Haly's. Not just work there, own it. You want him to have a source of revenue? He's got one. You want him building his own foundation as a solo character? Haly's is about the only thing his IP truly owns. You want him to keep at least one foot in his Bat roots? This goes back to his Robin origin story. You want him to have a job he's naturally qualified for, that is entertaining and true to his character? This is literally the only job he's ever had other than "hero" that he was able to hold down for more than five minutes, and it's a circus/entertainment venue/casino/whatever update you wanna spin. Want him to have a job that doesn't interfere with his heroics? Dick owns the place, but someone else runs the day-to-day. You want him traveling a lot? Haly's goes on tours. You want him stationary? Haly's is set in one spot (Gotham or Bludhaven or Jump City or anywhere). Want him travel but have a home to go back to? Haly's does the occasional tour only, and Dick travels a lot searching for talent.

    It can be bright and fun for kid stories or have a seedy, dark underbelly for the more HBO minded. It can be left alone and ignored sort of like Wayne Enterprises often is, or it can be the focus of plots. It provides its own supporting cast, opportunity for guest stars from all corners of the DCU, it can be played as a street level affair with "standard" entertainments, or it can be more fantastical, with super human performers. Any story you can fit Dick into, you can fit Haly's.
    This makes me wonder who should be in the supporting cast? Is there any important cast from Dick's past that can work?

  14. #1469
    Astonishing Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cc008 View Post
    Considering Waid wrote a wonderful Daredevil run...yeah I would be all for him writing Nightwing.
    Agreed. What a wonderful time for a reunion between Waid & Samnee
    Last edited by K7P5V; 05-28-2020 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Made Adjustments.

  15. #1470
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    Agreed. What a wonderful time for a reunion between Waid & Samnee
    Yes!!! That's exactly what I was thinking.

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