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  1. #961
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Hard to believe, maybe maybe not. Original, certainly not.
    Well, originality is subjective. Tim's origin still has a lot of differences. For starters, he witnessed the actual murder. And then (years later), seeked for Dick. You could argue a lot of Tim's gimmicks were copying other characters, that doesn't mean he was unoriginal or uninspired. Probably the only original thing in the whole Robin franchise is the concept of a (kid) hero sidekick itself (which is why Dick is "the original sidekick"), as the partner of an adult hero. And I'm not sure it wasn't something that happened in adventure books back in the day.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 03-23-2020 at 11:49 AM. Reason: things inside () are addenda of my edit
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  2. #962
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I thought people agree that Battle for The Cowl is stupid and shouldn't be canon? At least that seems to be the consensus back when it came out? What's with Damian randomly picking up girls, Jason randomly going on a rampage even though he should've been at least smarter than that, and it is Tony Daniel's first writing gig which he bound to get some things wrong?

    I remember everyone back then suggested to skip Battle for The Cowl and go with Batman Long Shadows instead if they want to read about Batman transition.
    I donít remember either of those particularly being praised.

  3. #963
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    So should Jason or Dick get along or just be hostile. I often feel that it’s a brotherly thing at times but they can be pissed off. Than again he has tried to kill them at times

  4. #964
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I prefer it when Jason isn't included in family gatherings. I feel like since he returned to the fold and been included in things he's lost his fangs, so to speak. I think Dick and Jason love each other like brothers; it's a complicated dynamic considering everything like Death in the Family, and there's love there. But a lot of pain and disappointment and regret and resentment too.

    I'd rather they kind of not like being in the same room together, but still be willing to help one another when the other is up against a wall.
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  5. #965
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    I agree, to me it misses the point with Jason. I don't even think Dick and Jason love each other like brothers. That's too convenient. Dick and Bruce are family by bond not blood. Dick developed an actual bond with Tim and Damian, the time they spent together is what made them close. He doesn't have that with Jason. He never really did. He accepted the kid, but no bond was really developed with them beyond that before Jason died, and when Jason came back he was actively trying to maim and/or murder him and the others. There is no reason for Dick to just accept or like Jason, and vice versa. Unlike Bruce Dick doesn't owe Jason anything. Just because Bruce sweeps things under the rug with Jason doesn't mean Dick should too. Thats boring and lazy. Red Hood is suppose to be polarizing.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 03-23-2020 at 10:13 PM.

  6. #966
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    In an early Dixon Nightwing, Scarecrow made Dick had insecurity in comparison to Bruce where he's married to Donna but poor living right next door to the rich ass Bruce

    Where... did this come from? I mean I haven't read what leads up to it, but it just looks out of nowhere, because while Dick may have insecurities it's not about wealth.

    Also, Donna? Is this because they only recently broke him up with Starfire and they haven't built up his relation with Babs?

  7. #967
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    That Dick had kind of an "inferiority complex" (not sure if that's the right term) was iirc a thing since NTT (I think it was one of the things he spoke about with his therapist).

    Why Donna I don't raelly know, maybe he wanted to use someone close to Dick, who he normally doesn't have romantic relation with?

    Btw. it was actually the hallucination of Jason that shocked him out of it. (And he also hallucinated Jason in his Secret Files and Origins issue).
    Last edited by Aahz; 03-24-2020 at 04:01 AM.

  8. #968
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I think the insecurity, for someone who used to work for a perfectionist like Batman, makes sense, it's the wealth thing and Donna that threw me off. If the fear is about not being able to guard Bludhaven as good as Batman guard Gotham (which isn't saying much but Dick kinda put Bruce on a pedestal) that sounds better to me.

    Wait maybe that's it. He puts Bruce on a pedestal, despite everything they went through. They just make up after having a rift post Jason's death, so his state of mind is probably back to admiration.

    Since a nightmare doesn't have to make sense, that feeling of fear and inadequacy now that he has to take care of a city on his own, made him compare himself to Bruce, but cleaning a city is an abstract concept. Wealth isn't. You can easily imagine wealth represented by materials.

    So in a nightmare, the symbols that came up to represent the inadequacy towards what Dick perceives to be perfection, as he puts Bruce on a pedestal, is wealth.

  9. #969
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Weird, I thought Donna's relationship to Dick was always more brother-sister, not romantic. He loves her, but not that way.
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  10. #970
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Yeah, I've always thought Jason worked best as a true anti-hero, willing to kill bad people, who operates outside of the family. I can see the argument for "character growth" away from his under the hood persona, but i think that growth actually looses more than it gains. Will-straight-up-kill-the-drug-dealer-Jason is something much different than the rest of the family, and still allows him to be a "good guy." I also think that Dick should pretty much hate him for trying to hurt Bruce and for still being willing to use lethal force. Dick is SO black and white with his morality. He's willing to help someone reform once they've "repented" so to speak, but if Jason still things he's in the right of it, Dick should want him away from family gatherings and actively oppose him. They should be rivals, not friends.

    And maybe Dick *should* forgive him, is the thing. Like, perhaps the right thing to do is to welcome Jason back with open arms and love him like a brother. But he can't. Unrepentant lethal force, trying to harm Bruce, Dick sees these as unforgivable sins.

  11. #971
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Yea. They did try to get him with Donna I think but you know. That would be interesting. Hmmm, so Jason should be not a Bats anymore. But now he is somewhat. He doesn't often want to deal with Bruce. Or any of them. Expect Babs.

    I mean Nightwing globetrotter hero. Okay, but the main cast and others are important. Three characters from Nightwing history that should be part of this globetrotter comic. Also important supporting cast. Does he go to spiral or does he simply do his own thing? LIke he joins an acrobat team in Bludhaven that travels. Part of Haley Circus. I don't know with or without him being part of BAtfam I can't see him just ridding himself of the name.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 03-24-2020 at 12:24 PM.

  12. #972
    Astonishing Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Weird, I thought Donna's relationship to Dick was always more brother-sister, not romantic. He loves her, but not that way.
    Yeah! And it gets even more weird once Roy shows up.

  13. #973
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I thought people agree that Battle for The Cowl is stupid and shouldn't be canon? At least that seems to be the consensus back when it came out? What's with Damian randomly picking up girls, Jason randomly going on a rampage even though he should've been at least smarter than that, and it is Tony Daniel's first writing gig which he bound to get some things wrong?

    I remember everyone back then suggested to skip Battle for The Cowl and go with Batman Long Shadows instead if they want to read about Batman transition.
    ...Wait what ?

  14. #974
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Weird, I thought Donna's relationship to Dick was always more brother-sister, not romantic. He loves her, but not that way.
    That’s exactly right

  15. #975
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean would Donna and Dick ever even work really?

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