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  1. #2356
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    He lost his memory for so long. With the number of people in DC this issue would be solved. Diana's lasso can fix any broken mind. Not enough time with Clark. I mean he is after all why Dick got his Nightwing name

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That's the thing, we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Nightwing fandom is pretty passionately split along the Babs/Kori divide, and Babs will never work as a love interest as long as DC is pursuing her as a solo character (including her co-leading the BoP), and Kori will never work as long as DC is intent on keeping Dick more connected to Gotham than Titans Tower.

    If DC decided to seriously go with either of those two, the other half of the fandom would revolt and are damn unlikely to embrace the "other side" winning. If DC tries to introduce someone new, it has to be spun out over the long term. It has to be built slowly, so the fans *want* to see a relationship develop and are actively yelling about how long it's taking DC to pull the trigger. But for that to happen, you need people at DC who are interested and capable of that long-term investment, as well as a love interest who is worth rooting for.


    Why not both with Gotham and Titans. He is also well known for being in the Titans. So it's not like he can't be in the T-tower. When it comes to Babs or Kori. I think like they did with elsewhere stories work. We have him married to Kori in a few. So that solves it. They would never have him settle. Despite Starfire being his first love interest(in terms of with teammates). I mean Babs was older than him first. I mean that was one thing I was hoping for another difference he actually is in a lasting relationship, unlike Bruce and Catwoman. The best way why not being in another exes.However, you can please everyone so he can't be in a relationship at all it seems. I mean it's no difference from Selina orTalia. Why can't they pick one until the next reboot?
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 08-31-2020 at 09:52 AM.

  2. #2357
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Why not both with Gotham and Titans.
    For the same reason Bruce doesn't have Clark and Barry fix Gotham. Dick and Bruce might be part of teams in the wider DCU, but they're Bats first and foremost, which means their interactions with the supernatural and superhuman are largely limited to those team books (discounting the occasional low/mid-tier meta like Blockbuster or Croc) and their solo stuff is largely non-powered, street level vigilante adventures.

    For Dick and Kori to be together, DC would have to acknowledge the Titans as something more than just the team Dick is sometimes a part of; they'd have to admit that the Titans side of Dick's history is a actual part of his personal life that matters to him, and not just a side gig.

    DC *could* get Dick and Kori back together. But they won't, because that puts too much superhuman into the book when DC wants Dick limited to being a Bat.

    For the same reason, we won't get the Nightwing-Power Girl ship that I endorse either. A flying alien, in a book about gritty street vigilantism? Perish the thought!

    DC will likely just keep flip flopping between Babs and Kori, using one or the other for various "possible future" stories and adaptations, while the main canon cycles through short-term girlfriends who amount to less than Shawn did, with the occasional "will they/won't they" tease involving Babs (and Kori once in a while) without actually committing to anything. Which is a piss poor way to handle things, but is easier than actually putting any real thought or effort into the situation.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #2358
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    the poster didn't mention. I assume it's one of the Doom Metal
    It says Fabok 2017 on it, so it's too old for that. It would have to be a Rebirth era issue.
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  4. #2359
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That's the thing, we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Nightwing fandom is pretty passionately split along the Babs/Kori divide, and Babs will never work as a love interest as long as DC is pursuing her as a solo character (including her co-leading the BoP), and Kori will never work as long as DC is intent on keeping Dick more connected to Gotham than Titans Tower.

    If DC decided to seriously go with either of those two, the other half of the fandom would revolt and are damn unlikely to embrace the "other side" winning. If DC tries to introduce someone new, it has to be spun out over the long term. It has to be built slowly, so the fans *want* to see a relationship develop and are actively yelling about how long it's taking DC to pull the trigger. But for that to happen, you need people at DC who are interested and capable of that long-term investment, as well as a love interest who is worth rooting for.
    And therein lies the rub. Sadly, I don't see it ever resolving. I'm among those converted to the first church of PowerWing-- long may it reign-- but what it really comes down to is that the shipping war is scorching the Grayson earth. Both sides demand to see him with one while the run is going on and won't shut their mouths until he hooks up with Barbara/Kory and afterward the other half demand the change. His life cannot be about anything but which redhead he's interested in because a large portion of his fanbase are so in love with him that they just want his book to be about his love life. I'm convinced it should be a YA book series about Dick Grayson and his love triangle. That shit would sell more than anything. Probably get adapted into a CW show. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

    More than anything, the new Nightwing series needs to establish early on that he's just come back from the whole Ric thing and really, really just wants some time on his own. Have him team up with both love interests independently, not follow a romance yet (fine, bait the hook but don't commit to keep them buying) and just be about Dick Grayson for a while. Again, I like both ships, but that fandom needs to be starved a while because the character is becoming toxic to the idea of stories revolving around anything else other than who he's hooking up with.

  5. #2360
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    And therein lies the rub. Sadly, I don't see it ever resolving.
    Possible. But let's keep in mind that DC is under new management and the corporate structure has been completely upended. It is entirely possible that Dick starts getting better treatment going forward. Hell, he's already started getting better treatment than the last few years gave us, a little consistency and world building in his book isn't a huge stretch. The love interest is a quagmire they'll likely put off on resolving for a while (it's not a necessary element of the narrative while also being a huge pain in the ass) but if the character gets some real effort, this aspect of the IP will eventually have to be tackled too.

    Given that AT&T seem to be big on synergy and the adaptation potential of the source material, and considering how popular Dick is in larger media, his odds of quality treatment might actually be higher than the odds of him still getting marginalized. I mean, if the goal now really is to push these IP's into bigger, new markets, Nightwing is better positioned than a lot of characters for it and if AT&T have half a brain, they'll recognize that. And this isn't even my fandom talking, this is the business. Far as I can tell, Dick is a IP that already does fairly well in larger media and still has plenty of growth potential.

    Do we know how his YA OGN sold? I gave it a quick Google but didn't find anything.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #2361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Possible. But let's keep in mind that DC is under new management and the corporate structure has been completely upended. It is entirely possible that Dick starts getting better treatment going forward. Hell, he's already started getting better treatment than the last few years gave us, a little consistency and world building in his book isn't a huge stretch. The love interest is a quagmire they'll likely put off on resolving for a while (it's not a necessary element of the narrative while also being a huge pain in the ass) but if the character gets some real effort, this aspect of the IP will eventually have to be tackled too.

    Given that AT&T seem to be big on synergy and the adaptation potential of the source material, and considering how popular Dick is in larger media, his odds of quality treatment might actually be higher than the odds of him still getting marginalized. I mean, if the goal now really is to push these IP's into bigger, new markets, Nightwing is better positioned than a lot of characters for it and if AT&T have half a brain, they'll recognize that. And this isn't even my fandom talking, this is the business. Far as I can tell, Dick is a IP that already does fairly well in larger media and still has plenty of growth potential.

    Do we know how his YA OGN sold? I gave it a quick Google but didn't find anything.
    The thing is the focus for new and bigger market is likely on OGNs or digital.

    OGNs don't care about continuity (like you can see in Lost Carnival). That means you won't have almost any of Dick Grayson story, since an OGN for Dick will likely build Dick's story from zero.

    Dick Grayson could still be relegated in main continuity books (especially as they want to focus on the big names for that aspect).
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-01-2020 at 07:58 AM.

  7. #2362
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    double post by accident
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 09-01-2020 at 08:19 AM.

  8. #2363
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    For the same reason Bruce doesn't have Clark and Barry fix Gotham. Dick and Bruce might be part of teams in the wider DCU, but they're Bats first and foremost, which means their interactions with the supernatural and superhuman are largely limited to those team books (discounting the occasional low/mid-tier meta like Blockbuster or Croc) and their solo stuff is largely non-powered, street level vigilante adventures.

    For Dick and Kori to be together, DC would have to acknowledge the Titans as something more than just the team Dick is sometimes a part of; they'd have to admit that the Titans side of Dick's history is a actual part of his personal life that matters to him, and not just a side gig.

    DC *could* get Dick and Kori back together. But they won't, because that puts too much superhuman into the book when DC wants Dick limited to being a Bat.

    For the same reason, we won't get the Nightwing-Power Girl ship that I endorse either. A flying alien, in a book about gritty street vigilantism? Perish the thought!

    DC will likely just keep flip flopping between Babs and Kori, using one or the other for various "possible future" stories and adaptations, while the main canon cycles through short-term girlfriends who amount to less than Shawn did, with the occasional "will they/won't they" tease involving Babs (and Kori once in a while) without actually committing to anything. Which is a piss poor way to handle things, but is easier than actually putting any real thought or effort into the situation.
    Yea it's dumb. Dick isn't unlike like Bruce. So it's weird that they treat him like it. From messy relationships. We know if Dick needs it he would call for help. Unlike Bruce. He might be a bat but it is willing to admit a lot of things. I mean heck they don't have to acknowledge him kori. Rather than Titans matter to him. I don't get why it would be hard. With the Titans, he gets to be traveling around and be around other people who care for him. Dc can make a good crossover if they tried but no. I Dick/ Raven team-up. I mean if Batman can have one every now and then so should Dick. I mean Dick is both a Batfam and Titan. So we should have it that way
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 09-01-2020 at 01:11 PM.

  9. #2364
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    The thing is the focus for new and bigger market is likely on OGNs or digital.

    OGNs don't care about continuity (like you can see in Lost Carnival). That means you won't have almost any of Dick Grayson story, since an OGN for Dick will likely build Dick's story from zero.

    Dick Grayson could still be relegated in main continuity books (especially as they want to focus on the big names for that aspect).
    The focus is going to be on digital, and presumably OGN's, yes, but that doesn't negate the possibility of Nightwing being sorted out and his love life set straight.

    In digital and OGN, while a lot of liberties can and will be taken, the stuff that proves to be popular will likely filter into the main canon when and where it can. Not a perfect analogy here, but consider things like kryptonite and the Fortress of Solitude. Green rocks that can hurt Superman originated in radio and filtered into main continuity and now kryptonite can be found in basically every Superman adaptation and story there is. The Fortress started out in the comics but never really had a strong visual identity outside of a giant key....until Donner did the stuff with the crystal castle, and now that aesthetic is used for the Fortress in the vast majority of Superman stories.

    Bottom line, the stuff that works will stick, regardless of format. If a OGN tells a love story with Dick and Kori (or Babs, or Power Girl, or who the hell ever) and that proves very successful and adaptation-friendly, then that relationship has good odds of making its way into other formats too.

    As far as the direct market goes, who the hell knows if Dick's solo will survive? It still sells in the top half of DC's rankings and Dick is still a pretty big character with tons of larger media presence under his belt, so I don't think his solo is dead in the water. And if it survives, the stuff that is successful in other formats will filter into the main canon when possible.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  10. #2365
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Yea it's dumb. Dick isn't unlike like Bruce. So it's weird that they treat him like it. From messy relationships. We know if Dick needs it he would call for help. Unlike Bruce. He might be a bat but it is willing to admit a lot of things. I mean heck they don't have to acknowledge him kori. Rather than Titans matter to him. I don't get why it would be hard. With the Titans, he gets to be traveling around and be around other people who care for him. Dc can make a good crossover if they tried but no. I Dick/ Raven team-up. I mean if Batman can have one every now and then so should Dick. I mean Dick is both a Batfam and Titan. So we should have it that way
    Well I believe the way for nightwing's growth is for him to become a titan first and foremost, you know the whole reason he became nightwing in the first place!

    If the nightwing solo was written as a solo titans book there wouldn't be no problem with him dating superpowered aliens or humans or amazons or furry ect. There wouldn't be any limits on what nightwing could do or be.

    But being a bat first and foremost has put the cuffs on him and with more and more bats nightwing just fades more and more into the background. That's one of the main reasons Grayson felt so good, it was dick with no limits no cuffs.
    Last edited by WonderNight; 09-02-2020 at 01:43 AM.

  11. #2366
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean we can have both of Dc doesn’t just treat him like a Bat. But a Bat and Titan. If they reopen it then it would open. Once moment in Bludhaven the next at the T tower.

    I been thinking career wise. Community center that has a international branches. That way he is global traveling

  12. #2367
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    I was thinking about it and I am a bit sad that Dick isn't in the Three Jokers story. I understand what Johns is going for with wanting 3 heroes for the 3 Jokers with each dealing with their "own" Joker, so he didn't want anyone else in the story, but my problem comes with Johns deciding to use the Golden Age Joker. Every single appearance of the Golden Age Joker Dick was always with Bruce. They always took him on together in those stories and to have all of Dick's appearances in those Golden Age stories be kind of discounted and just have that Joker be Bruce's own personal Joker is a little disappointing to me. It would have been great to see the two of them take on the Golden Age Joker again and have things come full circle, but Johns didn't want that.

    It is something I find a bit frustrating with Dick's character that his status as a Golden Age hero tends to get discounted. He predates so many other characters, heroes, and villains, but it feels like with every reboot or continuity shift that status gets lessened more and more. It just kind of sucks. He has so much history and was part of so many stories, but DC is so quick to overlook his involvement in them.

    Also I guess part of the issue is that he doesn't really have any "iconic" Joker stories where he is the focus. He's been fighting the Joker for 80 years and the Joker has done horrible things to him, but no story really stands out enough to where it feels essential. That can be said about any major villain I guess and is probably one of the biggest problems with Dick as a character. He doesn't have any real iconic stories with major villains where he is at the center.

    The closest he has is maybe Judas Contract with Deathstroke, but they will never make Deathstroke a Nightwing villain because Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to use Deathstroke in that way. Deathstroke is more of a Batman villain than he is a Titans one these days anyway it feels like. But even Judas Contract as much as it gets reused for things it isn't really a story that stood the test of time the same way those iconic 80s to early 90s Batman stories have. It was very much of its era. By that I mean the comic story itself isn't consumed the same way as those Batman stories despite JC getting adapted every time there is some new Titans iteration or property. So it is a popular and iconic story, but the comic isn't read that much anymore. Although they did that Teen Titans Earth One series, where they again adapted a version of Judas Contract, but Dick/Robin wasn't even in it. So not even DC views Judas Contract as being an essential Dick Grayson story where he has to be involved.

    Then there was that stretch where they tried to make Two-Face into more of a personal villain for Dick which never worked. Even the Court of Owls story Dick was kind of marginalized in it as it was very much a Bruce and Batman story first and foremost. I can't really think of any more iconic or at least wildly successful villain stories were Dick is at the center of it. Maybe because Nightwing is looked at as a step below DC's top heroes that will always prevent the character from ever getting those iconic villain stories.

  13. #2368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I was thinking about it and I am a bit sad that Dick isn't in the Three Jokers story. I understand what Johns is going for with wanting 3 heroes for the 3 Jokers with each dealing with their "own" Joker, so he didn't want anyone else in the story, but my problem comes with Johns deciding to use the Golden Age Joker. Every single appearance of the Golden Age Joker Dick was always with Bruce. They always took him on together in those stories and to have all of Dick's appearances in those Golden Age stories be kind of discounted and just have that Joker be Bruce's own personal Joker is a little disappointing to me. It would have been great to see the two of them take on the Golden Age Joker again and have things come full circle, but Johns didn't want that.

    It is something I find a bit frustrating with Dick's character that his status as a Golden Age hero tends to get discounted. He predates so many other characters, heroes, and villains, but it feels like with every reboot or continuity shift that status gets lessened more and more. It just kind of sucks. He has so much history and was part of so many stories, but DC is so quick to overlook his involvement in them.

    Also I guess part of the issue is that he doesn't really have any "iconic" Joker stories where he is the focus. He's been fighting the Joker for 80 years and the Joker has done horrible things to him, but no story really stands out enough to where it feels essential. That can be said about any major villain I guess and is probably one of the biggest problems with Dick as a character. He doesn't have any real iconic stories with major villains where he is at the center.

    The closest he has is maybe Judas Contract with Deathstroke, but they will never make Deathstroke a Nightwing villain because Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to use Deathstroke in that way. Deathstroke is more of a Batman villain than he is a Titans one these days anyway it feels like. But even Judas Contract as much as it gets reused for things it isn't really a story that stood the test of time the same way those iconic 80s to early 90s Batman stories have. It was very much of its era. By that I mean the comic story itself isn't consumed the same way as those Batman stories despite JC getting adapted every time there is some new Titans iteration or property. So it is a popular and iconic story, but the comic isn't read that much anymore. Although they did that Teen Titans Earth One series, where they again adapted a version of Judas Contract, but Dick/Robin wasn't even in it. So not even DC views Judas Contract as being an essential Dick Grayson story where he has to be involved.

    Then there was that stretch where they tried to make Two-Face into more of a personal villain for Dick which never worked. Even the Court of Owls story Dick was kind of marginalized in it as it was very much a Bruce and Batman story first and foremost. I can't really think of any more iconic or at least wildly successful villain stories were Dick is at the center of it. Maybe because Nightwing is looked at as a step below DC's top heroes that will always prevent the character from ever getting those iconic villain stories.
    As you say, I don't think Judas Contract stood the test of time. Honestly, I don't see a big story for Dick there.

    I read in this forum that Judas Contract was important for Dick, but I was dissapointed in that aspect when I read it.

    Dick has two or three pages devoted to he becoming Nightwing, but the rest of the story hardly focuses on him.
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-04-2020 at 04:42 AM.

  14. #2369
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    The Judas Contract is probably the most adapted and retold DC Story of all time for what it's worth.

    And yeah, it's unfortunate that he's not in the 3 Jokers. Fabok had said on Twitter that he and Johns had considered it, but ultimately decided to keep the story more focused. I think that Dick would have made an interesting counterpoint to the main cast coming from a healthier perspective with less deep trauma. Which would be a perfect role for Dick IMO. But I totally get it
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  15. #2370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I was thinking about it and I am a bit sad that Dick isn't in the Three Jokers story. I understand what Johns is going for with wanting 3 heroes for the 3 Jokers with each dealing with their "own" Joker, so he didn't want anyone else in the story, but my problem comes with Johns deciding to use the Golden Age Joker. Every single appearance of the Golden Age Joker Dick was always with Bruce. They always took him on together in those stories and to have all of Dick's appearances in those Golden Age stories be kind of discounted and just have that Joker be Bruce's own personal Joker is a little disappointing to me. It would have been great to see the two of them take on the Golden Age Joker again and have things come full circle, but Johns didn't want that.
    With my big, phallus-shaped Dick Fan hat on I 100% agree - but I think every member of the Bat Family has suffered in recent years from the idea that if you include one of them, you have to include all of them. Too many Bat Family summits where they share lines and quips and noone gets anything interesting to do - so I can see the logic in paring it down.

    It is something I find a bit frustrating with Dick's character that his status as a Golden Age hero tends to get discounted. He predates so many other characters, heroes, and villains, but it feels like with every reboot or continuity shift that status gets lessened more and more. It just kind of sucks. He has so much history and was part of so many stories, but DC is so quick to overlook his involvement in them.

    Also I guess part of the issue is that he doesn't really have any "iconic" Joker stories where he is the focus. He's been fighting the Joker for 80 years and the Joker has done horrible things to him, but no story really stands out enough to where it feels essential. That can be said about any major villain I guess and is probably one of the biggest problems with Dick as a character. He doesn't have any real iconic stories with major villains where he is at the center.

    The closest he has is maybe Judas Contract with Deathstroke, but they will never make Deathstroke a Nightwing villain because Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to use Deathstroke in that way. Deathstroke is more of a Batman villain than he is a Titans one these days anyway it feels like. But even Judas Contract as much as it gets reused for things it isn't really a story that stood the test of time the same way those iconic 80s to early 90s Batman stories have. It was very much of its era. By that I mean the comic story itself isn't consumed the same way as those Batman stories despite JC getting adapted every time there is some new Titans iteration or property. So it is a popular and iconic story, but the comic isn't read that much anymore. Although they did that Teen Titans Earth One series, where they again adapted a version of Judas Contract, but Dick/Robin wasn't even in it. So not even DC views Judas Contract as being an essential Dick Grayson story where he has to be involved.
    I'm coming around to the idea that this is because the idea that Dick has to have a monthly solo is more of a hindrance than a boon at this point - in terms of iconic status, being the leader of the team that battles Trigon and Deathstroke and Blackfire beats out being the person who solo battles Blockbuster, Shrike and Raptor. But Dick hasn't been able to be fully commited to that world for a long time, because he also has to be living in Bludhaven and battling the Mad Hatter and having walk-on parts in endless stories about Gotham being destroyed.

    I can't really think of any more iconic or at least wildly successful villain stories were Dick is at the center of it. Maybe because Nightwing is looked at as a step below DC's top heroes that will always prevent the character from ever getting those iconic villain stories.
    Speaking more widely, I don't think I can name any iconic Nightwing stories at all! You've got "Black Mirror" from when he was Batman, I'd put the whole of "Grayson" up there too, but between O'Neill and Dixon through to Seeley and Percy, I don't think there's a single go-to "Oh, you like Nightwing? Well, obviously you'll have read [[blank]]" story.

    Cancel the monthly. Bite the bullet and do it. Make a Dick a full-time Titans character, give that team a real push to capitalise on it's other-media success - lean in to the fact that between Dick, Raven, Cyborg and Starfire you've got a variety of settings and villains the team can operate in (street-level, magic, High Science/Tech, alien) and lean into that. Give them back Deathstroke.

    Then give Dick a mini or maxi-series every couple of years for solo things. Do one-shots for when you want him to be involved in Gotham Armageddon 2020 This Time We Mean It.

    DC and Dick would only benefit.

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