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  1. #2371
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Well nightwing not any having iconic villains or stories is the result of most always playing the support character role in most big stories.

    Dick doesn't have to lose his solo for a titans team book just change his solo into a titans book. Less bat like more crazy dcu villains in more cool dcu places with more dcu heroes.

    Make nightwing's solo into a dcu book and not just another bat book.

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  3. #2373
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    Well nightwing not any having iconic villains or stories is the result of most always playing the support character role in most big stories.

    Dick doesn't have to lose his solo for a titans team book just change his solo into a titans book. Less bat like more crazy dcu villains in more cool dcu places with more dcu heroes.

    Make nightwing's solo into a dcu book and not just another bat book.
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think New Teen Titans has many stories that focus on Dick, right?

    Judas Contract is a popular story and Dick becomes Nightwing, but he is hardly the focus on that story

  4. #2374
    Wily Veteran cc008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazurus33 View Post
    That smile is so irksome. I'd rather him be Ric lol.

  5. #2375
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    I'm coming around to the idea that this is because the idea that Dick has to have a monthly solo is more of a hindrance than a boon at this point - in terms of iconic status, being the leader of the team that battles Trigon and Deathstroke and Blackfire beats out being the person who solo battles Blockbuster, Shrike and Raptor. But Dick hasn't been able to be fully commited to that world for a long time, because he also has to be living in Bludhaven and battling the Mad Hatter and having walk-on parts in endless stories about Gotham being destroyed.
    Dick leading the Titans back to A-list status would be the ideal. The problem is that getting the Titans out of the rut they've been in since the 80s has proven very difficult after numerous (admittedly half assed) attempts. The Titans desperately need a HoX/PoX type of seismic shift.

    Unfortunately Hickman himself would the only author who has also expressed interest in the property that could pull that off, but he's unavailable. And with DC's business model up in the air at this point, who knows if the "maybe when he's done with the X-Men" pipe dream is on the table anymore?

    But I salivate at the thought of Hickman writing with Phil Jimenez as artist. Keep the iconic Titans and villains (so basically just the Fab 5 + NTT crew), ditch pretty much everything else and go ham on designing new stuff to add onto it.

  6. #2376
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Dick leading the Titans back to A-list status would be the ideal. The problem is that getting the Titans out of the rut they've been in since the 80s has proven very difficult after numerous (admittedly half assed) attempts. The Titans desperately need a HoX/PoX type of seismic shift.

    Unfortunately Hickman himself would the only author who has also expressed interest in the property that could pull that off, but he's unavailable. And with DC's business model up in the air at this point, who knows if the "maybe when he's done with the X-Men" pipe dream is on the table anymore?

    But I salivate at the thought of Hickman writing with Phil Jimenez as artist. Keep the iconic Titans and villains (so basically just the Fab 5 + NTT crew), ditch pretty much everything else and go ham on designing new stuff to add onto it.
    What’s the point if f Batdaddy can shut them down anytime
    Hell if they had stayed together Roy would be alive

  7. #2377
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Dick leading the Titans back to A-list status would be the ideal. The problem is that getting the Titans out of the rut they've been in since the 80s has proven very difficult after numerous (admittedly half assed) attempts. The Titans desperately need a HoX/PoX type of seismic shift.
    See, I don't know if it would need a HoX/PoX, but it would definitely need need a Green Lantern: Rebirth. Annoyingly, there's a parallel world out there where "Titans Hunt" had a better creative team, didn't have it's run truncated, and was any good at all - and it would have been perfect. The return of Wally West gave the series a sense of importance to the rest of the DCU - and a solid burst of goodwill that neither the miniseries nor the ongoing following on from it capitalised on at all. The fact that Abnett was given three swings at relaunching Titans and flubbed it each time is hugely galling....


    I'm still hoping that the combination of Tynion making a point of Deathstroke being motivated by animosity towards Dick in his "Batman", and Williamson getting five Death-Metal-significant issues of Justice League to reunite the Dick, Kori and Vic is some kind of unusually thought-through coordination.

    Still, might not be long now - didn't Alex Ross's painting of the NTT have tags suggesting we'd hear more and Fandome II next weekend?

  8. #2378
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    With my big, phallus-shaped Dick Fan hat on I 100% agree - but I think every member of the Bat Family has suffered in recent years from the idea that if you include one of them, you have to include all of them. Too many Bat Family summits where they share lines and quips and noone gets anything interesting to do - so I can see the logic in paring it down.
    My main problem with it comes from Johns using the Golden Age Joker. If he had used a different Joker I think I would feel differently, but I believe 100% of the Golden Age Joker's appearances Dick was always with Bruce. So for Johns to take that Joker and then use him specifically for Bruce and discount Dick's involvement completely didn't sit well with me. I feel like Dick being there for every single one of their encounters should matter at least some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    I'm coming around to the idea that this is because the idea that Dick has to have a monthly solo is more of a hindrance than a boon at this point - in terms of iconic status, being the leader of the team that battles Trigon and Deathstroke and Blackfire beats out being the person who solo battles Blockbuster, Shrike and Raptor. But Dick hasn't been able to be fully commited to that world for a long time, because he also has to be living in Bludhaven and battling the Mad Hatter and having walk-on parts in endless stories about Gotham being destroyed.
    I'm the biggest Bludhaven hater around and would love to see DC just retire it, but I don't see the Titans as a step up. If anything they are a step down given they have produced zero stories of value in the last several decades with Dick in them. It's been a complete disaster of a franchise in the comics. So for Dick to give up his solo book and be contained there feels like a bad idea. Deathstroke has outgrown the Titans unfortunately, but I don't look at villains like Blackfire or Trigon and think they are any better than the normal Bludhaven tier villains.

    I mean just look at what they did with that Rebirth story with Wally. They had this set up with his disappearance being caused by Dr Manhattan with so much hype around it, but when they started telling that story in the Titans book they couldn't use Manhattan because the Titans book isn't an important enough franchise to use that kind of villain. Instead they had Abra Kadabra be the cause of Wally's disappearance in an awful story. Instead of getting some other A-tier villain to use if Manhattan was off the table they used Abra Kadabra. That is the level the of villains and stories of the Titans franchise. They will never be treated or looked at like the JL where they face bigger or more important threats.

    So I don't see what value the Titans comics can provide when their track record is filled with terrible stories. Even more so than Bludhaven. At least Bludhaven has produced some okay stories in the last 25 years, but for Dick the Titans has produced nothing. They are still just riding off their success from the 80s. I'd want to see that franchise produce a good, maybe even great, Dick Grayson story first before I'd even consider wanting Dick to give up his solo book.


    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    Speaking more widely, I don't think I can name any iconic Nightwing stories at all! You've got "Black Mirror" from when he was Batman, I'd put the whole of "Grayson" up there too, but between O'Neill and Dixon through to Seeley and Percy, I don't think there's a single go-to "Oh, you like Nightwing? Well, obviously you'll have read [[blank]]" story.

    Cancel the monthly. Bite the bullet and do it. Make a Dick a full-time Titans character, give that team a real push to capitalise on it's other-media success - lean in to the fact that between Dick, Raven, Cyborg and Starfire you've got a variety of settings and villains the team can operate in (street-level, magic, High Science/Tech, alien) and lean into that. Give them back Deathstroke.

    Then give Dick a mini or maxi-series every couple of years for solo things. Do one-shots for when you want him to be involved in Gotham Armageddon 2020 This Time We Mean It.

    DC and Dick would only benefit.
    The problem with Black Mirror and why I didn't count it in my previous post was because James Gordon Jr isn't an iconic villain. Dick just doesn't have any great stories with iconic villains with Dick as the focus which to me really stands out as a major flaw in the character's history. Since those are the kind of stories people gravitate to even as time goes on.

    I've already said my peace about the Titans franchise above, but thinking about the whole situation more I think I realized the biggest mistake made with the character which connects to the Titans, and it might be my most controversial opinion. Dick never should have given up the Robin identity in the 80s. As successful as Nightwing has been it has never matched what Robin is, and Dick giving up that iconic identity lowered his ceiling.

    I understand why it happened. With the NTT creators and the Batman creators being split on what to do with Robin. With the success of the NTT series in the 80s it made sense to them at the time to do what they did an create a new Robin for the Batman books to use and shift Dick to just be a Titans character, but looking back on it now that was a major mistake for the character. It was great for characters like Jason or Tim since it allowed them to exist, but it diffused the Robin identity and lessened Dick’s importance in the long run.

    The 80s and early 90s really redefined Batman and had his creators produce many of the classic and iconic stories that are still read today. And Dick being absent from that era of stories because he gave up the Robin identity and was limited to just being in Titans hurt the character in the long run. Since those Titans stories of that era I don't think stood the test of time.

  9. #2379
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  10. #2380
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I'm the biggest Bludhaven hater around and would love to see DC just retire it, but I don't see the Titans as a step up. If anything they are a step down given they have produced zero stories of value in the last several decades with Dick in them. It's been a complete disaster of a franchise in the comics. So for Dick to give up his solo book and be contained there feels like a bad idea. Deathstroke has outgrown the Titans unfortunately, but I don't look at villains like Blackfire or Trigon and think they are any better than the normal Bludhaven tier villains.
    Yikes, really? Blackfire and Trigon are overplayed by the Titans franchise standards and it needs fresh villains, but they are vastly better than anything Bludhaven has ever offered.

    I agree that, as it is now, the Titans are not an ideal step up. Maybe with DiDio gone and whatever overhaul they're doing with their line, things could be looking up. But the Titans, as overly reliant as they are on the glory of the 80s, at least have that. Bludhaven, IMO, is a Never Was.

    I do agree with your point on the Robin identity though. As great as the first Nightwing story was, Perez left the book shortly after. So it's not like Dick was Nighwing for much of the good Titans stuff. He's been successful as Nightwing, but nothing has eclipsed his time as Robin in iconography and importance. It's not going to be able to, the entire point of Nightwing is informed by being Robin first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?
    I can't speak for Badou, but we would probably be looking at a smaller Bat-Family had they not figured out a lucrative alternative with Jason and just wrote him out or something. No precedent for passing on mantles, unless it materialized somewhere else. This would be either a detriment to the franchise or a positive depending on who you ask.

    As an adult hero leading his own team, the reputation for Robin becoming more serious could have been in stories told with Dick. He's not Batman's sidekick anymore and say he got the Neal Adams costume (designed for Dick in the first place). You can have an adult Robin easier than you can have the other Fab 5 be adults ("Girl," "Kid," "Lad"). Plus it's his identity that he's had since the 1940s.

    I think he would have been better off in some ways.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 09-05-2020 at 07:22 PM.

  11. #2381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?
    I don't know if this is true, but I read Batman editorial wants Dick to be younger at that time, it has sense since they want Robin to be sidekick of Batman.

    Mark Wolfman doesn't want this. As New Teen Titans was a big success at that time, he was able to avoid this, but Dick had to give up Robin identity.

    If this had happened about 5 years later, Wolfman would not have been able to avoid this, since New Teen Titans would have lost most of his popularity.


    So, the most likely is that Dick will be younger as Robin (honestly, the Crisis would be the perfect opportunity for this) and work with Batman again. Who knows what will happen with the other Titans.

    When they want Batman to be solitary again (at the times of "A Death in the Family"), they won't kill him. They will probably put him in other comics.

    That said, Dick will likely get a solo as Robin in the 90s (maybe even earlier).
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-05-2020 at 07:47 PM.

  12. #2382
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I can't speak for Badou, but we would probably be looking at a smaller Bat-Family had they not figured out a lucrative alternative with Jason and just wrote him out or something. No precedent for passing on mantles, unless it materialized somewhere else. This would be either a detriment to the franchise or a positive depending on who you ask.

    As an adult hero leading his own team, the reputation for Robin becoming more serious could have been in stories told with Dick. He's not Batman's sidekick anymore and say he got the Neal Adams costume (designed for Dick in the first place). You can have an adult Robin easier than you can have the other Fab 5 be adults ("Girl," "Kid," "Lad"). Plus it's his identity that he's had since the 1940s.

    I think he would have been better off in some ways.
    As I mentioned, if Dick mantained the Robin mantle, he wouldn't likely be an adult anymore. That likely will affect the Titans franchise too.

    That said, Dick will likely grow again. And he will get a solo as Robin at some point (and his suit likely get pants), so he will be independent.
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-05-2020 at 08:04 PM.

  13. #2383
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Yea. Dick is both a Batfam and titan first. So I wonder how long we will get to see both. With good writers it's not that harde to get a good nightwing story going.

  14. #2384
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?
    I was thinking about that while writing my previous post. I guess there are two outcomes. One is that he keeps the Robin identity, but he still gets moved over to the Titans franchise full time and the Batman office creates a new young sidekick with a new identity to be Batman's partner. Maybe there would have been less backlash for a Jason-type character if he didn't "take" the Robin identity. So there wouldn't have been a push to kill him off in a Death in the Family type of story. So he might have stuck around and filled a Tim-like role into the 90s, but without the Robin identity I don't know how popular or successful he would have been.

    Also with Dick still being Robin he might have gotten used in more Batman stories during that era even if he was still a Titans character. Since Robin is so important to Batman. So maybe a lot of those Batman stories in that era Dick would have been involved. Like Death in the Family if it still happened might have used him, Killing Joke might have used him if Dick is still prominent as Robin in the Batman stories, and the biggest change might have been the Knightfall story. It could have been completely different where after Bane breaks Batman maybe Dick takes on the Batman mantle to avenge him and defeat Bane instead of Jean-Paul Valley, which might have been the "iconic" Dick Grayson story that I was talking about originally with a big time villain that Dick doesn't have. Maybe Batman issue #500 could have been this landmark issue where it is Dick taking on the Batman identity instead of JPV. Then you figure Dick would have gotten a solo Robin book in the 90s when Tim did and it could still be running today and it might be looked at as a bigger title since it is Robin.

    The other outcome is he keeps the Robin identity and gets moved back to the Batman books. I don't know if the NTT series would have stayed successful without him because Wally also left around that time. So for that book to lose two major characters might have damaged it a lot. Maybe they would have deaged Dick some if that was an intention the Batman office had when they took him back, but obviously this means that Jason and Tim probably never get created. Dick doesn't really miss out on any major Titans stories with the well known ones already having happened before this, and his role as Robin probably changes many of those Batman stories I mentioned above. Like if some version of Death in the Family still happens and Dick is the Robin in it he probably wouldn't have been killed off or at least brought back soon after. Then Dick still would have gotten that Robin solo book, which would have been different to Tim's given their different backgrounds, and I guess he might have been used in a new Young Justice team in the 90s with DC wanting to create a new team comprised of young versions of their main heroes.

    The only problem with deaging Dick would have been with characters like Wally West. Since he and Dick are the same age and if he is running around as Flash then you might have some continuity problems if Dick is being written younger as Robin. Maybe DC would have decided to reboot all of their younger characters if they were okay with deaging Dick which would have caused an avalanche of changes. There are so many variables to account for with all this that it is tough to line everything up and guess how it all would have played out. It is fun to think about though, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yikes, really? Blackfire and Trigon are overplayed by the Titans franchise standards and it needs fresh villains, but they are vastly better than anything Bludhaven has ever offered.

    I agree that, as it is now, the Titans are not an ideal step up. Maybe with DiDio gone and whatever overhaul they're doing with their line, things could be looking up. But the Titans, as overly reliant as they are on the glory of the 80s, at least have that. Bludhaven, IMO, is a Never Was.

    I do agree with your point on the Robin identity though. As great as the first Nightwing story was, Perez left the book shortly after. So it's not like Dick was Nighwing for much of the good Titans stuff. He's been successful as Nightwing, but nothing has eclipsed his time as Robin in iconography and importance. It's not going to be able to, the entire point of Nightwing is informed by being Robin first.
    Trigon I'd concede on, even though he just has the one story, but I don't see how villains like Blackfire are any better than a Blockbuster. I'd even rate Blockbuster over her if I had to choose.

    Maybe with Didio gone things will get better for the franchise, but I don't think it will. I just don't think the adult Titans work as a concept like I've mentioned before. As adults they are stuck between not being on the level of the JL and too old to be the "young" generation that is the hallmark of the Teen Titans/Young Justice franchises, even though as adults they still get treated as the young heroes to their detriment.

    Yeah, I agree with that. Robin is one of the most iconic identities in all of comics. To expect an identity like Nightwing to measure up to that is asking for nearly the impossible. Though Nightwing has been successful for what it is. I don't want to discount that, but it just isn't Robin. I mean Nightwing doesn't even really have a solid origin story which is crazy to think about. The Judas Contract one isn't even canon anymore, the Batman firing him one isn't great and gets changed around, and I don't think DC ever even explained how Dick became Nightwing in the New 52. Then the Titans TV show came up with a brand new origin for it, haha. That is probably something else that hurts the Nightwing identity, but that is a whole different discussion.

  15. #2385
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    So how should Robin become Nightwing?

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