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  1. #3046
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Frankly, Titans shouldn't rely on Dick. That's what derailed the last series when he was forced out due to Ric.
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    Higgins is from Chicago.
    I wonder if he knows Ironheart and Champions writer Eve Ewing then? She's also from Chicago.
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  2. #3047
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Frankly, Titans shouldn't rely on Dick. That's what derailed the last series when he was forced out due to Ric.
    LoL, ya. That was that series problem. Thats series didn't do shit with Dick. Except feed him to the other and sell him as Batman's bitch. He was just there legitimize it. The problem the last series demonstrated was how the Titans literally needs Dick to survive, yet at the same time refuses to actually do anything with him or protect his character. That series undermined itself.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 11-26-2020 at 02:39 PM.

  3. #3048
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Titans has time between series, and stuff happening outside of comics.
    And despite those things, the Titans still can't maintain publishing or steady sales, and at its best barely manages to equal typical Nightwing numbers.

    Titans is *not* the franchise to send Dick to for rehabilitation. I get where you're coming from but the Titans is not the solution. It's just about the only book you could send Dick to where things would likely get worse for him instead of better. And how many times have we said "well the Titans have had a break and they've got the cartoon, and it's time to try again and it'll definitely be better this time!" only to find out that no, it's not better, and we watch the title die within 24 issues?

    It’s sales floor is now trash. Unless he’s sucking on Batman’s tit we are talking sub 15k now, well out of the top 100.
    And it took two years of intentional sabotage to get sales down that low. The fact that sales held as strongly as they did through the course of Ric shows how popular Dick is and how loyal his fans are. Seriously, for the first year or so Ric sales were barely below average, and I don't think many books could have pulled that off in the face of such low quality. Meanwhile, the Titans can't make a book last more than a couple years even when DC *isn't* trying to screw them over.

    Titans has time away, and allows for the opportunity to rest and then introduce a different foundation for the character as a solo IP. The point is they can’t just slap on a new creator and think that is going do anything at this point. They need to remarket with Nightwing now.
    I agree, they need to remarket the character. But not with the Titans. I mean, what is the message there? "Hey, we screwed this beloved character over for two years and treated him like he was still a sidekick. So we're gonna fix things by taking away his solo and putting him in a book none of you have cared about for thirty years so we can repeat a status quo the character outgrew decades ago!" If the goal is to move Nightwing forward and rebuild from the damage of Ric, then going backwards to the Titans is not the answer.

    The character *does* need a remarket, he *does* need to get away from Batman and Gotham. Putting him back in the Titans is not the way to tell people that it's a brand new day for Nightwing and the sins of the past won't be repeated. Sending him to the Titans will only tell fans that DC has learned nothing. Dick has had halfassed effort, at best, since the New52 began almost ten years ago. The Titans? They've sucked for *thirty* and require a hell of a lot more work and effort and investment to get their feet under them again.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  4. #3049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And despite those things, the Titans still can't maintain publishing or steady sales, and at its best barely manages to equal typical Nightwing numbers.

    Titans is *not* the franchise to send Dick to for rehabilitation. I get where you're coming from but the Titans is not the solution. It's just about the only book you could send Dick to where things would likely get worse for him instead of better. And how many times have we said "well the Titans have had a break and they've got the cartoon, and it's time to try again and it'll definitely be better this time!" only to find out that no, it's not better, and we watch the title die within 24 issues?

    And it took two years of intentional sabotage to get sales down that low. The fact that sales held as strongly as they did through the course of Ric shows how popular Dick is and how loyal his fans are. Seriously, for the first year or so Ric sales were barely below average, and I don't think many books could have pulled that off in the face of such low quality. Meanwhile, the Titans can't make a book last more than a couple years even when DC *isn't* trying to screw them over.

    I agree, they need to remarket the character. But not with the Titans. I mean, what is the message there? "Hey, we screwed this beloved character over for two years and treated him like he was still a sidekick. So we're gonna fix things by taking away his solo and putting him in a book none of you have cared about for thirty years so we can repeat a status quo the character outgrew decades ago!" If the goal is to move Nightwing forward and rebuild from the damage of Ric, then going backwards to the Titans is not the answer.

    The character *does* need a remarket, he *does* need to get away from Batman and Gotham. Putting him back in the Titans is not the way to tell people that it's a brand new day for Nightwing and the sins of the past won't be repeated. Sending him to the Titans will only tell fans that DC has learned nothing. Dick has had halfassed effort, at best, since the New52 began almost ten years ago. The Titans? They've sucked for *thirty* and require a hell of a lot more work and effort and investment to get their feet under them again.
    - Sales is not why Titans isn't regularly published, and Nightwing has now fallen well below where Titans numbers where when it was cancelled. Again, the point is not to rehabilitate the character but to give the bottom out solo series a break. As long as it can make it 6 issues above 25k, create time for the palate to be cleansed, and convince shops to use it as an order basis instead of his previous bottomed out series. It will have done its job.

    - Point is that they are now down that low. Regardless of how that got there, thats Nightwing's current reality. While Titans have been away long enough to start fresh. As bad as Rebirth Titans turned out creatively, it still debuted pretty strong.

    - They are already marketing the character with the Titans everywhere but in the comics, so the the message would be a unified message of how they are already selling the character. At this point they need to reestablish a base. Lets be clear here. Its not audiences that have rejected the Titans, but people within DC that have something against them. A short break with the Titans to regroup, is not something general audiences are going to freak out over or rebel against.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 11-26-2020 at 03:24 PM.

  5. #3050
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    - Sales is not why Titans isn't regularly published, and Nightwing has now fallen well below where Titans numbers where when it was cancelled. Again, the point is not to rehabilitate the character but to give the bottom out solo series a break. As long as it can make it 6 issues above 25k, create time for the palate to be cleansed, and convince shops to use it as an order basis instead of his previous bottomed out series. It will have done its job.
    Nightwing has also ran longer than that Titans book did by this point.

    But all this hinges on DC getting its head together when it comes to the Titans and using Dick well, which is why I would love to see but hasn't quite had the best track record in the past few years.
    - Point is that they are now down that low. Regardless of how that got there, thats Nightwing's current reality. While Titans have been away long enough to start fresh. As bad as Rebirth Titans turned out creatively, it still debuted pretty strong.
    Have they had a long enough break now, though?
    - They are already marketing the character with the Titans everywhere but in the comics, so the the message would be a unified message of how they are already selling the character. At this point they need to reestablish a base. Lets be clear here. Its not audiences that have rejected the Titans, but people within DC that have something against them. A short break with the Titans to regroup, is not something general audiences are going to freak out over or rebel against.
    I feel like they can do a two-fold rebuilding of the character both within the Titans and as an independent, solo, hero. I feel like that would be more effective than just sticking him in the Titans.

  6. #3051
    Mighty Member Drako's Avatar
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    According to Comichron, Nightwing is doing just fine. He still is selling more than most DC comics out there.

  7. #3052
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    Before Bat event inflation, he was at 18k. Just above Beyond. He's not doing fine. He's now completely reliant on Batman to stay above water.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 11-26-2020 at 07:19 PM.

  8. #3053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    According to Comichron, Nightwing is doing just fine. He still is selling more than most DC comics out there.
    This is only because Nightwing was part of Joker War event (that was a pretty profitable event).

    Nightwing doesn't usually sell so good.

  9. #3054
    Mighty Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Before Bat event inflation, he was at 18k. Just above Beyond. He's not doing fine. He's now completely reliant on Batman to stay above water.
    Yeah, and in his all time low he still sold more than the Teen Titans and Red Hood.

    But if you think no one will buy his comic with the relaunch and a new creative team, the only thing we can do is wait and see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    This is only because Nightwing was part of Joker War event (that was a pretty profitable event).

    Nightwing doesn't usually sell so good.
    Before Ric Grayson he sold around 25k to 30k regularly.

    Edit:

    I'm actually interested in seeing the numbers of issue 76, too bad it takes a lot of time for them to release this numbers.
    Last edited by Drako; 11-26-2020 at 07:56 PM.

  10. #3055
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    He was selling better before Ric. Which means he would have been better off without it. Nicola Scott shared this

    13E190D3-FDB9-44D7-AE64-9CB359950C04.jpg

    Honestly with future state being 2 months all of this could be forgotten. This is a shorten version of 5G anyway. So at this point they are probably seeing what will happen

  11. #3056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Yeah, and in his all time low he still sold more than the Teen Titans and Red Hood.

    But if you think no one will buy his comic with the relaunch and a new creative team, the only thing we can do is wait and see.
    Two books that also aren’t selling well. Teen Titans even being canceled. There being other books not selling well doesn’t mean Nightwing is doing fine. They are chopping books selling similarly, and would have probably chopped Nightwing too already if it wasn’t for them wanting Jurgens to have the work.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 11-26-2020 at 10:02 PM.

  12. #3057
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Two books that also aren’t selling well. Teen Titans even being canceled. There being other books not selling well doesn’t mean Nightwing is doing fine. They are chopping books selling similarly, and would have probably chopped Nightwing too already if it wasn’t for them wanting Jurgens to have the work.
    I mean the fact he was selling well before the Ric arc happened. Doesn’t that mean his numbers most likely will go back up? His numbers went low because of Ric not because of Nightwing wasn’t popular had the beginning was great. Yea Titans got cancelled. What would save the comic from being cancelled? They probably will be doing a new series

  13. #3058
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Before Bat event inflation, he was at 18k. Just above Beyond. He's not doing fine. He's now completely reliant on Batman to stay above water.
    Well over the last two years a lot of us dropped the book, it gonna take time for it to recover

  14. #3059
    Mighty Member Drako's Avatar
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    Nightwing will be in Batman #104.
    https://www.gamesradar.com/ghost-mak...n-104-preview/


  15. #3060
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Yeah, and in his all time low he still sold more than the Teen Titans and Red Hood.

    But if you think no one will buy his comic with the relaunch and a new creative team, the only thing we can do is wait and see.
    Pretty much.

    I don't think the title or the character have been so damaged a rest is required. Ultimately, Ric was nothing more than a bad run and nothing more. You don't put a title on the shelf for 1-3 years every time that happens, you just get a new creative team and move on. Granted, Ric lasted longer than most bad runs, but we're not talking about Hawkman levels of stank. I think a proper relaunch with a creative team and direction worth getting excited about will bring the sales back up relatively quickly. But we'll just have to wait and see what DC offers and who's doing it and how well fans respond.

    But I tell you this, the Nightwing fandom is one of the most hardcore loyal, ride or die groups in comics. It took forever for the sales to start to really slip during the Ric saga, and there's not a lot of books that could keep going as strongly as Nightwing did in the face of such crap quality. If DC gives us something worth reading, I believe sales won't take long to recover. But we'll see how things play out.

    And I'm not even worried about Jurgens sticking around. DC fired half their damn staff and common wisdom would tell us that they kept the better half of their talent pool. And all the old guard editors/managers who kept people like Jurgens and Lobdell employed are gone too. And didn't Jurgens say he was leaving anyway? I'm not expecting "Grant Morrison" level of talent on Nightwing, but I'll be surprised if we get the same kind of bottom of the barrel creators we have been.

    And no offense to Jurgens here; I love what that man did in the Super books back in the 90's and I got nothing but respect for him. But he was not up to the challenge of making Ric worth reading. I don't know if anyone could have saved that idiot storyline.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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