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  1. #256
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    By the way

    We're not getting Nicola Scott's ass-first cover as a variant in the Robin 80th book, aren't we?

  2. #257
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I'm inclined to believe that DC is saying no, more than creators not asking at all. As Godlike said, Dick was supposed to be a big part of No Justice, but somewhere between concept and final product, that got changed. Bendis wanted to use Dick in Event Leviathan and couldn't. And I want to say that Snyder has said Dick is one of his favorite characters, but got a bigger fish with Batman.

    It's also true that Dick is a whole lot like Batman, only without as much angst and brooding and inner conflict....but that's entirely on how DC has allowed him to be used since Dick returned from the Titans office. At one point Dick was like a Bat living in a Super world and he wasn't just doing standard street vigilante stuff. But DC seems to still be intent on downplaying that element of Dick's character, even though a powerless vigilante going up against big superhuman threats is a fairly unique niche that, as far as I know, no one else in DC is really filling.

    I also dont think the "too much like Batman" thing really justifies the extent of what we've seen the last few years. If writers didn't want to write Nightwing because he's so much like Batman, then why do they want to write Arrow? There's a lot of characters in DC that overlap each other a lot, I don't think the similarities between Dick and Bruce are that different.
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  3. #258
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    What do you guys think about this

    https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-finally-lost-ric-grayson/

    I hope this means we will finally be getting more Nightwing stories sooner than we think

  4. #259
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's all but over. The current storyline seems to be ending in April, he's back in costume in the annual solicit for that month.
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  5. #260
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    But even before the Ric story Dick was completely irrelevant to the greater DCU. No big writer was interested in using his character in anything. So I don't think this Ric story suddenly caused all these writers to lose interest in him or prevent them from using him as none were interested in using him before this. That No Justice story I think Snyder just made a mistake when he was speaking and he meant that Green Arrow and Waller would be the active ones on Earth still and not Nightwing. I don't think it is more complicated than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    What do you guys think about this

    https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-finally-lost-ric-grayson/

    I hope this means we will finally be getting more Nightwing stories sooner than we think
    He is still in his Ric costume with the mud on his face in the April Nightwing issue for whatever Tynion's Joker story is going to be. The solicit still refers to him as Ric too. The Annual could take place before the Ric story happens for all we know. All this did was prove how pointless the Owls and Talon story was. Retconning it as it being the Owls responsible for everything to cause Ric lead to nothing in the end. They go through so much trouble to set up this entire Ric plot to get him but Dick defeats them and their plot in such an easy way that it is laughable. Dick takes off those special goggles and he suddenly has his memories back, and the Owls basically throw their hands up and give up. They go through so much trouble and they fail to kill any named character even. It was such a poorly thought out story.

    He also still has his Ric memories the Owls apparently gave him and is going to continue to go by Ric, continue to wear exactly what Ric wears, and interact with all the Ric characters. You could completely erase the Owls and Talon story from the entire Ric saga and just have Ric regain his Dick Grayson memories when he is confronted by the Joker in the new arc and it would have the exact same effect.

  6. #261
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    What do you guys think about this

    https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-finally-lost-ric-grayson/

    I hope this means we will finally be getting more Nightwing stories sooner than we think
    I think we will see what happens. We've thought the Ric saga was close to ending before and were wrong. We've heard about the plans DC has for the character that never materialized (like his role in No Justice). So I don't put much stock in solicits or interviews. I'll judge what makes its way to the page when the book hits.

    From the sounds of it, DC might be taking this opportunity to tweak Dick again as well. If he's trying to figure out and balance "Ric" against "Dick" then we may not end up with a Dick Grayson that is much more recognizable than what we have now. Different from Ric perhaps, but not necessarily Dick Grayson as we'd recognize him. Which may or may not be a bad thing (the Grayson series was a big change too), we won't know until we read it.

    Or we might get Dick back at last, and the fandom will rejoice and sing....and still be worried about DC giving us crap quality.
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  7. #262
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I wonder if we had to deal with Ric. What storyline would have worked?

  8. #263
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    I also dont think the "too much like Batman" thing really justifies the extent of what we've seen the last few years. If writers didn't want to write Nightwing because he's so much like Batman, then why do they want to write Arrow? There's a lot of characters in DC that overlap each other a lot, I don't think the similarities between Dick and Bruce are that different.
    It's not a problem for green arrow or some others because there not apart of the same franchise or mythos or city and is the lead of there own brand.

    Nightwing is under the batman brand so the similarities are going to alot more direct and add to that batman is the lead and nightwing isn't, he ends up coming across as side character.

    If nightwing was his own lead or apart of a franchise that didn't already have the bigger ip of batman there the similarities between the two wouldn't be as big a problem.

  9. #264
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    He has the Titans franchise. But the comic side isn't anymore interested in investing more in Titans then they are Nightwing. Generally though they play into the similarities so they can more easily produce quick material.

    At the end of the day if they can't find creators, they are doing something wrong. They can find ways to make the situation more attractive. That's part of editorials job. They thought Ric would be a situation that would attract readers and creators alike. They were wrong. But instead of taking that as a hint, they doubled down and just passed it to resident yes men.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-19-2020 at 07:46 PM.

  10. #265
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    He also still has his Ric memories the Owls apparently gave him and is going to continue to go by Ric, continue to wear exactly what Ric wears, and interact with all the Ric characters. You could completely erase the Owls and Talon story from the entire Ric saga and just have Ric regain his Dick Grayson memories when he is confronted by the Joker in the new arc and it would have the exact same effect.
    Not for long. March's solicit indicates that Joker's going to take the four fake Nightwings off the board.
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  11. #266
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    It's not a problem for green arrow or some others because there not apart of the same franchise or mythos or city and is the lead of there own brand.

    Nightwing is under the batman brand so the similarities are going to alot more direct and add to that batman is the lead and nightwing isn't, he ends up coming across as side character.

    If nightwing was his own lead or apart of a franchise that didn't already have the bigger ip of batman there the similarities between the two wouldn't be as big a problem.
    Oh, I know. I've been yelling for DC to put Dick under different editorial for years. You're not wrong, being part of the Bat brand makes the similarities more striking. But at the same time, we've seen with books like Gotham Central and Red Hood and Azreal (90's version) and plenty of others that you can be part of the Bat world and be under the Bat umbrella without being Bat lite.

    Sometimes I think DC believes that Dick is the heir apparent of Batman, and as such has to be as much like Batman as possible. But if they let Dick be more himself, even a little bit, I think the differences would outweigh any similarities to the point the comparisons wouldn't matter. Hell, even putting Dick in some fun Silver Age Batman style adventures, yknow, back when Bats was *fun* would keep him under the Bat umbrella but let him stand apart.

    Seriously, just take that Batman Brave & the Bold cartoon, recycle the scripts and replace Bruce with Dick and you've got a quality seller. It's that f**kin' easy.
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  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    What do you guys think about this

    https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-finally-lost-ric-grayson/

    I hope this means we will finally be getting more Nightwing stories sooner than we think
    Still, Ric has finally gotten his happy ending, closure on the Court of Owls, and the means to reclaim his past life if he so chooses eventually. And with fan response on the Ric Grayson persona decidedly mixed, the full return of Dick Grayson and Nightwing can't come soon enough.
    mixed response? please show me ANY positive reaction to this storyline. It has been overwhelmingly negative on every single front.

  13. #268
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Not for long. March's solicit indicates that Joker's going to take the four fake Nightwings off the board.
    They have already done two arcs of the exact same set up. Dragging in some Gotham villain to Bludhaven to beat up the fake Nightwings. They had Scarecrow come to Bludhaven to beat up the fake Nightwings and challenge Ric. Then they later had Talon come to Bludhaven to beat up the fake Nightwings and challenge Ric. Now the Joker is going to come to Bludhaven to beat up the fake Nightwings and challenge Ric. It is so repetitive and frustrating. Maybe if we are lucky the Joker will kill off the fake Nightwings and Bea, but if those other two didn't I don't really expect or care at this point if the Joker does. For over a year now they have been dragging out Dick getting his memories back because they have no other story around Ric to tell. So they are having to continue to streeeeeeeeech out this one and only thing they did with the entire Ric story. The book and character is basically on hold until 5G before we can get some new and possibly interesting stories.

    I mean they could have just had Dick fully return after this Talon story. Then we could have gotten 6 months or so of new stories about Dick learning about and understanding all the major things he missed. From who I guess is his best friend in Wally killing a bunch of heroes, trying to kill himself, going to prison, and then disappearing, heroes like Roy being one of those that died, Gotham City being taken over by Bane and Bruce's dad and put into chaos, Alfred being killed and Damian having to witness it, Luthor sending the world into chaos and having characters like Donna again turn evil, and so on. They could have even had Dick go find KGBeast and confront him instead of Barbara doing that in her book to bring this whole mess full circle, but all of that requires effort and no one is willing to put that into the Nightwing book.

    Also you have the whole issue of why does the Joker even care about Ric in Bludhaven? He has zero motivation to go after Ric other than Tynion needs a hook for his Summer Joker story so they are dragging in Dick/Ric for that I guess. This also confirms the Joker knows Dick is Ric and that Dick is Nightwing too? This whole story doesn't really make sense to me as Dick is already cut off from Bruce so the Joker doesn't need to isolate Batman from his allies, but then does that mean the Joker is going to drag in Dick to taunt Batman? Which has zero appeal to me.

  14. #269
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    Dick got shot in the head to taunt Batman and now he'll getkidnapped by Joker to taunt Batman...again.

  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, I know. I've been yelling for DC to put Dick under different editorial for years. You're not wrong, being part of the Bat brand makes the similarities more striking. But at the same time, we've seen with books like Gotham Central and Red Hood and Azreal (90's version) and plenty of others that you can be part of the Bat world and be under the Bat umbrella without being Bat lite.

    Sometimes I think DC believes that Dick is the heir apparent of Batman, and as such has to be as much like Batman as possible. But if they let Dick be more himself, even a little bit, I think the differences would outweigh any similarities to the point the comparisons wouldn't matter. Hell, even putting Dick in some fun Silver Age Batman style adventures, yknow, back when Bats was *fun* would keep him under the Bat umbrella but let him stand apart.

    Seriously, just take that Batman Brave & the Bold cartoon, recycle the scripts and replace Bruce with Dick and you've got a quality seller. It's that f**kin' easy.
    I was reading some back issues the other day and this same line of thought came to me. If Dick has to be an echo of Batman, then it should be silver age Batman. Fun, outlandish, and definitely not street level. I think the Spyral stuff and some elements of Morrison and Seeley captured this side of Dick the best.

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