Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[Godlike13]

Because he has been writing Ric for more then a year, is why he shouldn’t write the character anymore. Enough is enough, kill the book already and protect the return as a selling point for the next creative team. It going to lose its shine real fast after being back for a couple months of more Jurgen’s. They need to start distancing the character from Ric, not let Ric’s lazy creators try to save face with Dick.

[Ascended]

Assuming we get a big line-wide relaunch of some kind after Metal, with a new creative team for Nightwing and probably a new #1 on the cover (possibly a combined number....200 and something I guess?) that'll provide a solid push for the book. It'll be as part of the post-Metal relaunch event so it'll just be one of many titles but it's still a wave Nightwing will ride.

I think right now it's just a really weird position. Dick returning as Nightwing should be a big deal and warrant a new creative team....but that relaunch is likely gonna hit in a few months anyway, presumably with some new continuity and various stunts, gimmicks, and directions to catch attention. So a new creator coming in right now would probably just be treading water until the post-Metal relaunch anyway. I feel like there aren't a ton of options between now and Metal's ending, and none of them are all that great.

[DragonPiece]

Assuming we get a big line-wide relaunch of some kind after Metal, with a new creative team for Nightwing and probably a new #1 on the cover (possibly a combined number....200 and something I guess?) that'll provide a solid push for the book. It'll be as part of the post-Metal relaunch event so it'll just be one of many titles but it's still a wave Nightwing will ride.

I think right now it's just a really weird position. Dick returning as Nightwing should be a big deal and warrant a new creative team....but that relaunch is likely gonna hit in a few months anyway, presumably with some new continuity and various stunts, gimmicks, and directions to catch attention. So a new creator coming in right now would probably just be treading water until the post-Metal relaunch anyway. I feel like there aren't a ton of options between now and Metal's ending, and none of them are all that great.

Exactly, it'd be pretty weird to put a new writer on right before a relaunch happens in 2-3 months. Just let Jurgens tie up loose ends from the Ric plotline so the next writer doesn't have to deal with any of that.

[Badou]

Are there any loose ends to tie up? The whole Ric saga has been really sparse in terms of introducing actually plots despite going on for 2 years, but I guess that is what happens when a 3rd of each issue is just recapping what happened in the previous one. All we have are Bea, the fake Nightwings, and the Owls I guess, but I don't want to see any of them again in this story unless it is Jurgens killing them off. In the new solicits he is going to have Dick go after KGBeast to try and tie it back to Batman #55, but I don't even care about that. All I'd really want to see before some relaunch would be Jurgens addressing Dick learning about everything that happened to Wally and what he did during Heroes in Crisis, or things like Dick (not fucking Ric like what we had) finding out Alfred is dead and Damian had to watch him die. Actual important things like that an actual person would be desperate to find out about, but we won't get any of that.

[Restingvoice]

Where do you prefer Nightwing keeps his ice cream a stick?
- Strapped to his gloves
- Inserted into oversized gloves
- Strapped to his boots
- Inserted into oversized boots
- Strapped behind his back on a Y strap
- Strapped behind his back on an X Strap
- Strapped behind his back, on the waist, horizontally, one atop of the other
- Strapped on the side of his waist vertically attached to a belt
- Up his ass

Also how many pairs should he carry? He has at least
- The regular smooth one that can also double as a line launcher that he can bounce 27 times
- The ones with smooth grip but spikey heads
- The electric ones with larger heads that lights up

[Light of Justice]

Where do you prefer Nightwing keeps his ice cream a stick?
- Strapped to his gloves
- Inserted into oversized gloves
- Strapped to his boots
- Inserted into oversized boots
- Strapped behind his back on a Y strap
- Strapped behind his back on an X Strap
- Strapped behind his back, on the waist, horizontally, one atop of the other
- Strapped on the side of his waist vertically attached to a belt
- Up his ass

Also how many pairs should he carry? He has at least
- The regular smooth one that can also double as a line launcher that he can bounce 27 times
- The ones with smooth grip but spikey heads
- The electric ones with larger heads that lights up

Ice cream? Oh, you mean escrima stick. Sorry my glutton self was blanked for a second. For simplicity in real life, personally I prefer on side of waist attached to belt, but if he put his escrima stick behind his back on X strap, it will make cooler withdraw scene. I like the electric ones, not very fond of spiky ones.

[Light of Justice]

Are there any loose ends to tie up? The whole Ric saga has been really sparse in terms of introducing actually plots despite going on for 2 years, but I guess that is what happens when a 3rd of each issue is just recapping what happened in the previous one. All we have are Bea, the fake Nightwings, and the Owls I guess, but I don't want to see any of them again in this story unless it is Jurgens killing them off. In the new solicits he is going to have Dick go after KGBeast to try and tie it back to Batman #55, but I don't even care about that. All I'd really want to see before some relaunch would be Jurgens addressing Dick learning about everything that happened to Wally and what he did during Heroes in Crisis, or things like Dick (not fucking Ric like what we had) finding out Alfred is dead and Damian had to watch him die. Actual important things like that an actual person would be desperate to find out about, but we won't get any of that.

Yeah Batfam is in the dark place now, except maybe Tim, and some of his friends are fucked up (Roy died, Wally..you know, at least what happened to Donna is already over). And I don't know this sudden writers fondness of using KGBeast, but if KGBeast is real person I have to applaud his dedication for his jobs. After he shot Dick he got horribly beaten by Batman, then he heals(?), takes job from unstable person then almost lost his life if not because Batgirl's help of all people, then get arrested by police, the he escapes(?) and get his fake arm chopped by murderous Damian. After all that shits, he still thinks for his credibility as assassin. Truly admirable.

[Badou]

Yeah Batfam is in the dark place now, except maybe Tim, and some of his friends are fucked up (Roy died, Wally..you know, at least what happened to Donna is already over). And I don't know this sudden writers fondness of using KGBeast, but if KGBeast is real person I have to applaud his dedication for his jobs. After he shot Dick he got horribly beaten by Batman, then he heals(?), takes job from unstable person then almost lost his life if not because Batgirl's help of all people, then get arrested by police, the he escapes(?) and get his fake arm chopped by murderous Damian. After all that shits, he still thinks for his credibility as assassin. Truly admirable.

I completely forgot about the Donna thing, but I guess it doesn't matter too much since Dick and Donna aren't really close anymore. Plus Dick has been controlled/brainwashed by the Owls and Joker himself since Donna was controlled by the Batman Who Laughs thing, lol.

[Godlike13]

Assuming we get a big line-wide relaunch of some kind after Metal, with a new creative team for Nightwing and probably a new #1 on the cover (possibly a combined number....200 and something I guess?) that'll provide a solid push for the book. It'll be as part of the post-Metal relaunch event so it'll just be one of many titles but it's still a wave Nightwing will ride.

I think right now it's just a really weird position. Dick returning as Nightwing should be a big deal and warrant a new creative team....but that relaunch is likely gonna hit in a few months anyway, presumably with some new continuity and various stunts, gimmicks, and directions to catch attention. So a new creator coming in right now would probably just be treading water until the post-Metal relaunch anyway. I feel like there aren't a ton of options between now and Metal's ending, and none of them are all that great.

End it and let the main series lie till the relaunch. They got the JL Metal Tie-in to hold readers off. Selling Nightwing post Ric is going to be hard as it is now, the post-Metal relaunch is something overall for DC but his return is an individual selling point on top of that for his next series. Which is all the character individually really has at this point. Jurgen's run is insultingly simplistic and creatively bone dry, it would literally take two pages to rap up his lose ends. Loose ends that people don't really even care about. Letting Jurgen's drag out things even more only serves to let Jurgen's try to save face and bleed whatever readers are left of those very last drops, with just more of his no effort and needlessly dragged out boring crap. The more they they let that continue, the worse the character's image becomes, the harder it becomes for the character to sell.

[Ascended]

End it and let the main series lie till the relaunch. They got the JL Metal Tie-in to hold readers off. Selling Nightwing post Ric is going to be hard as it is now, the post-Metal relaunch is something overall for DC but his return is an individual selling point on top of that for his next series. Which is all the character individually really has at this point. Jurgen's run is insultingly simplistic and creatively bone dry, it would literally take two pages to rap up his lose ends. Loose ends that people don't really even care about. Letting Jurgen's drag out things even more only serves to let Jurgen's try to save face and bleed whatever readers are left of those very last drops, with just more of his no effort and needlessly dragged out boring crap. The more they they let that continue, the worse the character's image becomes, the harder it becomes for the character to sell.

You're kinda screwed either way. You cancel the book for a couple months right after Dick returns as Nightwing and that's not helping him. You start a new direction with new creators and they'll only get a couple issues before the presumed post-Metal relaunch so those early issues probably can't go anywhere or set anything up. You let Jurgens get a few more issues in just to spin some wheels and....you've got Jurgens spinning wheels.

At this point, it's been two years of Ric....I doubt another two or three issues will make much difference. The damage Ric was going to do has already been done. Who knows? Jurgens can write better than what he's been doing in Nightwing, maybe he'll knock out a couple issues that aren't complete garbage, without all the Ric crap to deal with. And if not....well, at the rate he's pacing the story it'll take two-three issues just to clear the board and get rid of the fakewings and everything else.

And we'll have Dick in Justice League, which will provide a big boost to his visibility leading into post-Metal, so at least there's that (assuming they don't screw him over in that book too). It's a sh*t situation no matter how you cut it, I figure no matter what DC does everything is basically a wash until post-Metal. Once that series is over, we'll see what they do with Nightwing and if they have any intention of, you know, actually putting in any effort at all.

[Godlike13]

The current book is so bad that canceling it would help him. Its about either using "The Return of Nightwing" as selling point to allow Jurgen's to continue to spin his wheels for a couple months, or using it to help launch the next series. They are letting Jugen's, the lowest selling Nightwing writer, get the first word on Dick being back and water it down. Making it far less special for the next team. Letting the same no draw, boring creators, bury Dick's return with their complacently is just wasteful. It would be better if they end it so they can protect the return as a selling point as much as they can for what comes next.

[Ascended]

Maybe if decisions like this were up to the Nightwing writers we'd get something like that. But it's not the Nightwing book driving the bus, it's the Batman title and what's good for Dick's solo isn't really their problem or consideration. And it shouldn't be; they're writing Batman not Nightwing, they should focus on their own book; it's editorial's job to make sure Nightwing is treated like a solo IP (since, y'know, he has a solo) and they don't care enough to protect the title's interests.

I'm not arguing it's not wasteful or stupid that Jurgens is staying on the book after Dick's return. I'm just saying the last couple years have been nothing but a waste, so what's another couple issues on top of all that? When Metal wraps and DC does the inevitable line-wide relaunch that'll get Nightwing some attention and provide incentive for readers; what happens right now is....basically a lost cause no matter what they do. I don't think a few more issues under Jurgens is gonna hurt Dick any more than he's already been hurt.

I bet you ten bucks that, when Metal is done and Nightwing launches with a new creative team and a new numbering, it'll be treated like he's just come back to the costume. DC will pretend the gap between then and 75 doesn't exist.

[Godlike13]

DC treating its market base like its made up of simpletons would be ignorant on there part. They do it, but we shouldn’t just accept it. That was a major problem with the Ric run. DC can try to pretend the gap between 75 doesn’t exists but readers will see Nightwing being back for multiple months, under the same creator they haven’t been interested in, continuing to do more boring filler regardless. Shops to will see it too and use the previous series at its end as a basis for their orders and where they think the new one will level off. They are wasting moments they can use to help sell his next series like his return, or his first confrontations with KG Beast, so their protected creators that no longer really generate can still have something to do, just like they did with Ric itself.

This is basic character protection. Oh one more loss won’t hurt, one more bad appearance won’t hurt, one more bad writer won’t hurt, one or more months of the same creators won’t hurt. But these things catch up, Nightwing is barely viable as it is thanks to this kind of thinking.
The next series was always going to inherit the ramifications of Ric, and now they are wasting the few selling points Dick might have had going into his next series for a couple months of fruitless busy work. That’s going to hurt. Dick being back isn’t going to be as fresh after months of being back with filler, the second confrontation with the man who shot him isn’t going to carry the same impact, ect, ect. Not ending the book is just going to make things even harder for the next team and series, and now they now will have less potential moments to build with.

Old dudes like Lobdell and Jurgen’s never cared, cause they were never really invested in the character, his readers, or what was being done to begin with. And how they perform doesn’t seem to matter. This is a big reason Ric turned out like it did, its was never theirs as they were just filling in the boxes for DC. Even if it’s just for a couple more month, by continuing to not put the series out it’s misery, and feeding those same going no where creators even more moments and selling points, but now with Dick. Just further hurts the character’s viability going forward.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

Honestly, I prefer this. Nightwing never should've been taken off the board the way he was, so I'd rather his return is done outside of a new relaunch. The new book or direction should be good enough to stand on its own legs, and if it isn't, then oh well. Allowing it to ride the hype while being another empty, direction-less story the way Rebirth more or less was (really, that book being good at any point is just due to Seeley caring and being a good writer, the book itself was nothing), that would be worse imo.

That said, I'd also prefer the book just ends with #76 if not #75, assuming there's a relaunch in the works as we're all thinking.

[Digifiend]

In reference to the previous discussion...I liked Dick’s interactions with Jesse Quick. She’ll always be a Flash character, but there enough of these young heroes around that Dick could truly be in the mentoring business.

Well, Jesse is just as connected to the Justice Society, and, as I assume you know, is also a former Titan. Now that she's about to be brought back, there's no reason she can't be used, and not necessarily in a Flash title.

Are there any loose ends to tie up? The whole Ric saga has been really sparse in terms of introducing actually plots despite going on for 2 years, but I guess that is what happens when a 3rd of each issue is just recapping what happened in the previous one. All we have are Bea, the fake Nightwings, and the Owls I guess, but I don't want to see any of them again in this story unless it is Jurgens killing them off. In the new solicits he is going to have Dick go after KGBeast to try and tie it back to Batman #55, but I don't even care about that. All I'd really want to see before some relaunch would be Jurgens addressing Dick learning about everything that happened to Wally and what he did during Heroes in Crisis, or things like Dick (not fucking Ric like what we had) finding out Alfred is dead and Damian had to watch him die. Actual important things like that an actual person would be desperate to find out about, but we won't get any of that.

There's a few things to wrap up. Sap, aka Nightwing Prime, is currently in the hospital, being watched over by two of the other three faux-Nightwings, after being attacked by Joker. They are, however, already considering giving it up, having just realised it was Joker and not Talon who targeted them. They finally realised they're in over their heads. The Bea relationship needs ending somehow. Dick will need to be updated on the status of the Bat family, and what's happened to both Titans teams (his own and Damian's) as well as Wally. As you say, he needs to grieve for Alfred, as though he knew of his death, he wasn't emotionally attached at the time. And they'll probably want to link into Death Metal: Justice League.