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  1. #2011
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I'm torn because keeping the current "eh" creators will blunt any potential of momentum for a return. But I also don't want a hot new creative team to even have to touch upon this garbage.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  2. #2012
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    that could be a decent Nightwing and Flamebird design!

    So we are still waiting to see if Dick gets a new creative team? Has it become clear we are stuck with this one or is there hope?
    I don't think we know yet how long Jurgens will be around. We know he's doing 75, but past that I haven't anything about creative teams.

    As for that Dan Mora art....if we could take the red suit with the arm stripe, and use the blue coloring, I think we'd have a pretty damn near perfect update to the suit.

    Replacing the full helmet for a more recognizable mask too, obviously.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    The argument that it being in batman's book get more attention is kinda true, but it does more harm than good in the long run because if all of the big character defining thing for dick keeps happening in other books. Than why am I reading nightwing?

    Nightwing just ends up being a side book for a side character in dick. If his book is not going to matter to the dcu at least let it matter to himself.
    Yeah, the absolute best case scenario for Joker War is that Dick takes something *out* of the Batman book, that Batman-but-not-Nightwing readers will want to follow.

    As others have said, the best bet for that is Deathstroke. Let the story have a big "Deathstroke vs Nightwing" moment, Nightwing beating Slade when Bruce can't because of their shared history, and then spin the repercussions of that into a new Nightwing or Titans run and hope people follow.

  4. #2014
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    Yeah, the absolute best case scenario for Joker War is that Dick takes something *out* of the Batman book, that Batman-but-not-Nightwing readers will want to follow.

    As others have said, the best bet for that is Deathstroke. Let the story have a big "Deathstroke vs Nightwing" moment, Nightwing beating Slade when Bruce can't because of their shared history, and then spin the repercussions of that into a new Nightwing or Titans run and hope people follow.
    I just hope they didn't think Nightwing being the one to take down Punchline would be seen as a compelling win for a returning Nightwing.

  5. #2015
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    I doubt they’ll even have Nightwing take Punchline down. At this point current bat office is more invested in her then they are him.

  6. #2016
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Well. Dick was treated better in other movies just not the new 52 movies. Maybe one reason is simply that they didn't know how to use Dick or didn't care. They probably knew they were going to reboot anyway. Hope he will be treated better.

    I wonder sometimes in order to make a better character we have to take them out of the normal. What has Nightwing not done?
    curious how exactly was he treated badly?
    I don't believe that they didn't care or know how to use the character. The same people gave us gems like Caped Crusaders. I know they planned a 3rd Titans movie set just after Star arrived on Earth so focused on Dick's time as Robin.

    Shame since that would have meant the shared Universe would have a movie for all the key stages in his history aside from Grayson. Celebrating his successes and his most successful identities

    The movie we never got [Robin]- The OG Robin founding member of Teen Titans
    Judas contract - The NTT Nightwing TT
    Bad Blood - DickBATS
    Hush - Nightwing solo Hero and son of Bruce wayne [this movie gave us more of Bruce and Dick interacting like father and son. It reflected their closeness.

    I think the people behind the movies know the character well. They cared enough to come up with a plan on how to cram 80 years of comics history into approx 15 hrs [ Total runtime of all the batverse and TT focused movies set in the shared universe] while highlighting some of what makes him such an enduring character.

    Alfred, Bruce and Dick as a family. THE Batfamily - pretty much conveyed in the way they interact.

    Even his patience, encouragement, frustration and positive influence on Damian - Son of batman sparring scene and TT v JL Damian joining the TT

    His maturity, heroic nature, sense of humour, his ability to easily handle Damian without ever getting down to his level, The only Robin who has never seriously thrown hands with a 10 year old - Son of batman where Dick easily takes down Damian and ties him up in a comedic fashion. Restraining him instead of fighting him.

    A true Hero. Dick is the only batcharacter who has spent pretty much all his life as a hero on the field [He started at age 8 and is now an adult, Bruce spent years training becoming batman as a young man] - JLD: AW - Dick literally gives up his life saving Damian

    Dick as the other head of the batfamily - Bad blood. Bruce goes missing Dick steps up and rallies everyone together.

    Even the fact that Bruce is often cruel, uncaring and a D bag to Dick is conveyed in the scene where Dick is pinned to the wall and Bruce rather than going to free him hugs Damian.


    The animation team treated him well especially when you consider the limitations {total runtime of all the movies as mentioned prior]
    And the Fact that he was a lead in just 2 of the movies.

    We got Dick bats, RobinDick, Dick and Deathstroke long running feud, Nightwing, his relationship with Starfire etc to say they didn't know what to with him must be a joke or sarcasm because they clearly did a lot.

    Curious what would you have done with him?

  7. #2017
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    I doubt they’ll even have Nightwing take Punchline down. At this point current bat office is more invested in her then they are him.
    Punchline?
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  8. #2018
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Punchline?
    Haven't read her, but I understand her to be the Joker's new girlfriend. DC hoping for another Harley.

    I, really, really dislike Nightwing (or any other Batfam) fighting members of some sort of "Joker-family" - they done way too many Luthors for the Supers, too. Keeps the the spin-off heroes less distinctive and fighting baddies than can only be subordinate. Keeps those heroes subordinate that way, instead of letting them develop their own villains and attain a more equal view from fans. Keeps them off the top tier. Dick managed it once, but they drug him back to subordinate status and have kept him there more-or-less since. But everyone's living in Batman's world these days. Just heard about a lot more Bat-theme in Legion of Superheroes.

  9. #2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    curious how exactly was he treated badly?
    I don't believe that they didn't care or know how to use the character. The same people gave us gems like Caped Crusaders. I know they planned a 3rd Titans movie set just after Star arrived on Earth so focused on Dick's time as Robin.

    Shame since that would have meant the shared Universe would have a movie for all the key stages in his history aside from Grayson. Celebrating his successes and his most successful identities

    The movie we never got [Robin]- The OG Robin founding member of Teen Titans
    Judas contract - The NTT Nightwing TT
    Bad Blood - DickBATS
    Hush - Nightwing solo Hero and son of Bruce wayne [this movie gave us more of Bruce and Dick interacting like father and son. It reflected their closeness.

    I think the people behind the movies know the character well. They cared enough to come up with a plan on how to cram 80 years of comics history into approx 15 hrs [ Total runtime of all the batverse and TT focused movies set in the shared universe] while highlighting some of what makes him such an enduring character.

    Alfred, Bruce and Dick as a family. THE Batfamily - pretty much conveyed in the way they interact.

    Even his patience, encouragement, frustration and positive influence on Damian - Son of batman sparring scene and TT v JL Damian joining the TT

    His maturity, heroic nature, sense of humour, his ability to easily handle Damian without ever getting down to his level, The only Robin who has never seriously thrown hands with a 10 year old - Son of batman where Dick easily takes down Damian and ties him up in a comedic fashion. Restraining him instead of fighting him.

    A true Hero. Dick is the only batcharacter who has spent pretty much all his life as a hero on the field [He started at age 8 and is now an adult, Bruce spent years training becoming batman as a young man] - JLD: AW - Dick literally gives up his life saving Damian

    Dick as the other head of the batfamily - Bad blood. Bruce goes missing Dick steps up and rallies everyone together.

    Even the fact that Bruce is often cruel, uncaring and a D bag to Dick is conveyed in the scene where Dick is pinned to the wall and Bruce rather than going to free him hugs Damian.


    The animation team treated him well especially when you consider the limitations {total runtime of all the movies as mentioned prior]
    And the Fact that he was a lead in just 2 of the movies.

    We got Dick bats, RobinDick, Dick and Deathstroke long running feud, Nightwing, his relationship with Starfire etc to say they didn't know what to with him must be a joke or sarcasm because they clearly did a lot.

    Curious what would you have done with him?
    I think a lot of people were frustrated with those films because Dick jobs in almost every one of them. Even to Damian when they spar, which was absolutely ridiculous. I have no complaints about his personality in these films but they really downplayed his skills to make other characters look better, whether it be Bruce or Damian or some random bad guy. It became a running gag; how is Nightwing going to break his arm in this movie?

    I didn't even get the Dick and Damian bonding that I hoped I'd see in these movies, not even the one where they "adapted" (and I use that word lightly) Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin run. It wasn't a celebration of Batman coming full circle like the comics were, it was to show that Bruce is the ultimate hero by having Dick tell him he's just the bestest ever after Bruce takes him down while under mind control. Ok then.

    Damian calling Dick his brother in JL:AW felt really unearned, because at no point did I get the impression that Damian moved beyond tolerating him, which is a vast difference to their relationship in the comics.

    Hush had Bruce doubt that Dick could take down a small ring of thugs by himself and offer to rush in and help, had him job yet again to Scarecrow, and had him fall flat on his face while practicing....I get it was supposed to be a comedic moment, but these movies love making him look incompetent to service a joke.

    The only thing Grayson-centric that I really enjoyed in these films was Dick's relationship with Kory. His relationships with Bruce and Damian largely left me disappointed, if I am honest. Dick's been a hero all his life. Show us he has the skillset to match, because he does. I don't expect him to win every fight but yeesh these movies made me roll my eyes.

  10. #2020
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Haven't read her, but I understand her to be the Joker's new girlfriend. DC hoping for another Harley.

    I, really, really dislike Nightwing (or any other Batfam) fighting members of some sort of "Joker-family" - they done way too many Luthors for the Supers, too. Keeps the the spin-off heroes less distinctive and fighting baddies than can only be subordinate. Keeps those heroes subordinate that way, instead of letting them develop their own villains and attain a more equal view from fans. Keeps them off the top tier. Dick managed it once, but they drug him back to subordinate status and have kept him there more-or-less since. But everyone's living in Batman's world these days. Just heard about a lot more Bat-theme in Legion of Superheroes.
    Well that sounds lame, i guest that i'm not missing much ignoring the current Batman title. I don't remember any sort of Luthor family, beyond his sister thougth and she pretty much dissapeared after Darkseid Wars and that was the only time she was an enemy. There was also his niece who appeared in Superboy's solo with Johns and then Lemire, but she was a supporting characther not an enemy. Unless there is something happening in current Superman titles that i'm not aware of (still reading the second trade of both series by Bendis).
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  11. #2021
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Well that sounds lame, i guest that i'm not missing much ignoring the current Batman title. I don't remember any sort of Luthor family, beyond his sister thougth and she pretty much dissapeared after Darkseid Wars and that was the only time she was an enemy. There was also his niece who appeared in Superboy's solo with Johns and then Lemire, but she was a supporting characther not an enemy. Unless there is something happening in current Superman titles that i'm not aware of (still reading the second trade of both series by Bendis).
    She may not have been an enemy, but I definitely found it a rework "Lex and Clark were friends in their youth" (plus, he'd already been given Clark's powers, Clark's hometown, and Clark's parents - so much less distinctive than he was before) There was Nasthalthia Luthor who used to cause trouble for Supergirl back in pre-COIE. And I'm told another little Luthor showed up in the last Super Sons - I didn't read that series, because my sister told me it wasn't good. I did read the earlier ones.

    Punchline may turn out to be the next big thing - most characters don't succeed, but she's associated with the Joker, and that helps. I freaking hate Batman Who Laughs, but he's extremely popular. And if they think it can help with another success, they will absolutely make her curbstomp Nightwing.

  12. #2022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    She may not have been an enemy, but I definitely found it a rework "Lex and Clark were friends in their youth" (plus, he'd already been given Clark's powers, Clark's hometown, and Clark's parents - so much less distinctive than he was before) There was Nasthalthia Luthor who used to cause trouble for Supergirl back in pre-COIE. And I'm told another little Luthor showed up in the last Super Sons - I didn't read that series, because my sister told me it wasn't good. I did read the earlier ones.

    Punchline may turn out to be the next big thing - most characters don't succeed, but she's associated with the Joker, and that helps. I freaking hate Batman Who Laughs, but he's extremely popular. And if they think it can help with another success, they will absolutely make her curbstomp Nightwing.
    Yep. Right now they're building her up, so Batgirl, Batman, and others have jobbed to her already and the train ain't slowing down until Joker War is over. Skill doesn't really factor in (if indeed it ever does, really) because ultimately what matters most is what the writers need from the character. In this case, it's the Batfamily running with their tails between their legs until they aren't and gather strength for a comeback, and for Punchline to have some sticking power with all the hard work they put into designing and marketing her.

  13. #2023
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    So we are getting that scene in King's Batman where Thomas beat all batfamily after being beaten first, but now Nightwing can join the fun...awesome
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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  14. #2024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    She may not have been an enemy, but I definitely found it a rework "Lex and Clark were friends in their youth" (plus, he'd already been given Clark's powers, Clark's hometown, and Clark's parents - so much less distinctive than he was before) There was Nasthalthia Luthor who used to cause trouble for Supergirl back in pre-COIE. And I'm told another little Luthor showed up in the last Super Sons - I didn't read that series, because my sister told me it wasn't good. I did read the earlier ones.

    Punchline may turn out to be the next big thing - most characters don't succeed, but she's associated with the Joker, and that helps. I freaking hate Batman Who Laughs, but he's extremely popular. And if they think it can help with another success, they will absolutely make her curbstomp Nightwing.
    yeah but he wasnt a real luthor he was just an alien from another universe who thought the villians were cool heck we had a joker kid who actually was the good guy.

    and as for punchline, she beat barbra and harley, she can worf all the bat kids.

  15. #2025
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    But Dick is different. Shouldn't he win against Punchline?

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