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  1. #241
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Nightwing sales were declining more and more with them failing to find a replacement for Seeley, so a stunt wasn’t unwarranted. Problem lies with them putting the Bat lines lowest charting creators on the stunt, then letting things go on longer then Grayson despite it clearly not working and being widely rejected.

    It makes no sense to think the guys on the books charting even lower then Nightwing were going to improve things. Thats just illogical. The only thing those creators manage to accomplish was to bring Nightwing closer in performance to RHatO and Batman Beyond. Which of course. That’s why they can’t seriously leave Jurgan’s on after Ric and expect a different result then.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-18-2020 at 04:53 PM.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Nightwing sales were declining more and more with them failing to find a replacement for Seeley, so a stunt wasn’t unwarranted. Problem lies with them putting the Bat lines lowest charting creators on the stunt, then letting things go on longer then Grayson despite it clearly not working and being widely rejected.

    It makes no sense to think the guys on the books charting even lower then Nightwing were going to improve things. Thats just illogical. The only thing those creators manage to accomplish was to bring Nightwing closer in performance to RHatO and Batman Beyond. Which of course. That’s why they can’t seriously leave Jurgan’s on after Ric and expect a different result then.
    At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they kept Jurgens on "Nightwing" when they relaunch it. It doesn't make sense, but neither did keeping Abnett on "Titans" when they relaunched that after "No Justice".

  3. #243
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Oh, my ban is over. Getting banned over the Ric Grayson story is such a joke. First time I've ever been banned on an internet forum.

  4. #244
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Here's an idea for a nightwing stunt. A-list talent on a run! every character in nightwing's sells tier has had it since the new 52 (tom king was a unknown).

    All I know is if nightwing could get a Cybrog push he'd probably have a second book.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    Here's an idea for a nightwing stunt. A-list talent on a run! every character in nightwing's sells tier has had it since the new 52 (tom king was a unknown).

    All I know is if nightwing could get a Cybrog push he'd probably have a second book.
    The push that DC have Cyborg was a push in name only, writers never did anything interesting with him, kept rehashing old plot lines( am I a man or monster?, Daddy issues), have him a terrible supporting cast and a rogue gallery filled with robots.

    The only difference between Cyborg's 'push' and Dick's current situation is that the Ric Grayson experiment is infinitely worse and has less random robot villains.

  6. #246
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    Here's an idea for a nightwing stunt. A-list talent on a run! every character in nightwing's sells tier has had it since the new 52 (tom king was a unknown).

    All I know is if nightwing could get a Cybrog push he'd probably have a second book.
    Yeah, and once they prove they're good on Dick, they're moved to Batman. Just like King.

    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    The push that DC have Cyborg was a push in name only, writers never did anything interesting with him, kept rehashing old plot lines( am I a man or monster?, Daddy issues), have him a terrible supporting cast and a rogue gallery filled with robots.

    The only difference between Cyborg's 'push' and Dick's current situation is that the Ric Grayson experiment is infinitely worse and has less random robot villains.
    Well, there's a difference between marketing and writing. The marketing wants Cyborg but the writer can't deliver.

    The same thing can happen to the new Nightwing series.

  7. #247
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    I think the issue is that no big A-list creators are interested in using his character. It isn't even so much about putting a major talent on his solo book, but there isn't really any interest in using the character for any BIG DC stories. In continuity or out of continuity. Take Jason as an example. His solo book has remained unchanged, but you look at the list of creators that are interested in using him in their big stories has gone up regardless of what his solo is doing. You have Bendis that wanted to use Jason for his Leviathan event, you have Johns that has big plans for Jason in the Three Jokers story, and you have Tom Taylor using Jason at the forefront of his DCeased story.

    Things like that are completely missing for Dick's character. Either these top creators aren't interested in using Dick, or DC is telling them no. I'd probably go with the former of the two. Even things like Sean Murphy's White Knight series where he was interested in doing a Joker and Harley story, or Stjepan Sejic doing his Harleen series, none of them are interested in doing one for Dick. I guess a few years ago Higgins did his Nightwing New Order mini series, but he wasn't exactly a big name creator and it didn't get much promotion. I wonder if DC looks at that Higgins mini and seeing it not do that well in sales made DC cool off with doing anything else like that for the character.

  8. #248
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Yeah, and once they prove they're good on Dick, they're moved to Batman. Just like King.
    To be fair, King was co-writing Grayson with Seeley - who wrote Nightwing Rebirth. Because of that, I don't understand why they needed a fill-in writer for the last couple of Grayson issues - what was stopping Seeley doing them?
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  9. #249
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I think the issue is that no big A-list creators are interested in using his character. It isn't even so much about putting a major talent on his solo book, but there isn't really any interest in using the character for any BIG DC stories. In continuity or out of continuity. Take Jason as an example. His solo book has remained unchanged, but you look at the list of creators that are interested in using him in their big stories has gone up regardless of what his solo is doing. You have Bendis that wanted to use Jason for his Leviathan event, you have Johns that has big plans for Jason in the Three Jokers story, and you have Tom Taylor using Jason at the forefront of his DCeased story.

    Things like that are completely missing for Dick's character. Either these top creators aren't interested in using Dick, or DC is telling them no. I'd probably go with the former of the two. Even things like Sean Murphy's White Knight series where he was interested in doing a Joker and Harley story, or Stjepan Sejic doing his Harleen series, none of them are interested in doing one for Dick. I guess a few years ago Higgins did his Nightwing New Order mini series, but he wasn't exactly a big name creator and it didn't get much promotion. I wonder if DC looks at that Higgins mini and seeing it not do that well in sales made DC cool off with doing anything else like that for the character.
    So in your opinion why are so many creator's not interested in Dick. Is it because he's to similar to batman and robin or all he has of value as a solo character comes from batman.

  10. #250
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean in a way isn't that a good thing to have creators take him? Dick has his own things. You can separate him from Batman but not from his circus life.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    To be fair, King was co-writing Grayson with Seeley - who wrote Nightwing Rebirth. Because of that, I don't understand why they needed a fill-in writer for the last couple of Grayson issues - what was stopping Seeley doing them?
    Nightwing Rebirth. They wanted the writers on the bimonthlies to have issues written in advance to avoid any delays.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-18-2020 at 09:07 PM.

  12. #252
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    So in your opinion why are so many creator's not interested in Dick. Is it because he's to similar to batman and robin or all he has of value as a solo character comes from batman.
    It's the Superman problem without the Super. Dick is a well adjusted nice character with no obvious inner or outer conflict.

    Darker characters like Batman, Jason and Damian are considered easier to write because they have flaws and conflict, in and out, that they can exploit for a story.

    He's not dark or angsty, but he's not a fool or goofy either, so you can't make a story based on his flaws nor his inexperience.

    In Grayson you can, because he's never been in a spy world, but even then they downplay his intelligence so he can't figure out what the spies are planning. His enthusiasm is lowered, so he's more passive in solving the case Batman tasked him to do.

    In Humphries' story, he made him don't want to ask for help, even though Nightwing's known to be open and connected, so the story can go the way it was

    Then in Percy's he suddenly hates technology

    Even with Seeley, he accepts offers from villains, gets sucker punched, or loses a fight against his equal or lower tier character, except that time in the villain's party sub.

    Higgins is like that too. Made him loses fight against B villains and make angst by burning Haly's Circus and killing his named supporting cast.

    So his writers have to make up flaws for him to make his story work

    I think it was Priest who said that Dick is a boring character because he's too perfect or that he should have a better story?

    Metatextually, his brand name isn't as big as Superman, Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Wonder Woman, and so on, so if a writer is offered a higher brand character, they'll take it.

    His character bounces well against dark characters like Batman, Midnighter, Tiger, Huntress, Jason, and Damian, but most of them already have a book. He's a good big brother, but most of his little siblings are being used in other books.

    Which kinda makes me wonder why they don't make rival and little siblings characters... well, Seeley did in Raptor and The Run-Offs... I guess that's why he's one of the best.

    Other than that, writers like King, Johns, and Snyder prefer to make him the counselor/confidant where he's often depicted as the better person to the main character their writing, Batman, but also an object of affection and therefore victim.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 01-18-2020 at 09:54 PM.

  13. #253
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    So in your opinion why are so many creator's not interested in Dick. Is it because he's to similar to batman and robin or all he has of value as a solo character comes from batman.
    Batman is probably the main reason. Writers would much rather write Batman than Nightwing. That is who they aspire to write and actively pursue, which is just stating the obvious and you can't blame them for it. It's Batman. Nightwing is just kind of stuck in a position where in their eyes he doesn't really offer up a lot of uniqueness to make them interested in using him over a Batman, or even over a Damian or a Jason for certain stories. It is why when big writers use Nightwing now it is only to push some Batman story along where Dick's role is limited.

    A Red Hood is far enough removed from Batman and Nightwing that he probably appeals more to writers right now. Since you get the dynamic of him being a former Robin and this complicated relationship with Bruce, but at the same time he can fall into a hero or anti-hero category, uses guns, and has connections to these other villains like a Joker or a Talia Dick doesn't have. Same with Damian being Bruce's actual son, the active Robin (which is the bigger brand over Nightwing), and also falls into more gray area. Nightwing right now as a character lacks utility.

    So Nightwing just comes across as redundant when Batman is there. Plenty of writers could have done more with Nightwing's character when they used him, but just had no interest. The entire Ric story is actually a microcosm of everything that is wrong with the character currently. If you read those old Lobdell or Jurgens interviews about the Ric story they go on about how it is designed to show Dick as a character finally without the influence of Batman. Dick completely on his own, but they both failed completely at showing any aspect of that. Immediately they fell into the same old stories and tropes that would happen regardless if the Ric story was going on or not. It shows you how DC and its creators view the character of Dick Grayson currently and it is devoid of anything actually unique or interesting, sadly. So how can you expect creators to be interested in writing the character when the ones actually writing him aren't even interested themselves?

  14. #254
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    It's the Superman problem without the Super. Dick is a well adjusted nice character with no obvious inner or outer conflict.

    Darker characters like Batman, Jason and Damian are considered easier to write because they have flaws and conflict, in and out, that they can exploit for a story.

    He's not dark or angsty, but he's not a fool or goofy either, so you can't make a story based on his flaws nor his inexperience.

    In Grayson you can, because he's never been in a spy world, but even then they downplay his intelligence so he can't figure out what the spies are planning. His enthusiasm is lowered, so he's more passive in solving the case Batman tasked him to do.

    In Humphries' story, he made him don't want to ask for help, even though Nightwing's known to be open and connected, so the story can go the way it was

    Then in Percy's he suddenly hates technology

    Even with Seeley, he accepts offers from villains, gets sucker punched, or loses a fight against his equal or lower tier character, except that time in the villain's party sub.

    Higgins is like that too. Made him loses fight against B villains and make angst by burning Haly's Circus and killing his named supporting cast.

    So his writers have to make up flaws for him to make his story work

    I think it was Priest who said that Dick is a boring character because he's too perfect or that he should have a better story?

    Metatextually, his brand name isn't as big as Superman, Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Wonder Woman, and so on, so if a writer is offered a higher brand character, they'll take it.

    His character bounces well against dark characters like Batman, Midnighter, Tiger, Huntress, Jason, and Damian, but most of them already have a book. He's a good big brother, but most of his little siblings are being used in other books.

    Which kinda makes me wonder why they don't make rival and little siblings characters... well, Seeley did in Raptor and The Run-Offs... I guess that's why he's one of the best.

    Other than that, writers like King, Johns, and Snyder prefer to make him the counselor/confidant where he's often depicted as the better person to the main character their writing, Batman, but also an object of affection and therefore victim.
    I agree with a lot of this. The thing that makes Dick unique, in that he is a well adjusted person and hero, makes writers less interested in him. It is a double edge sword. I love that aspect of his character, but nearly every big writer has no interested in it unfortunately. Even though there is an endless number of manga series that show you can have a well adjusted hero and still tell unique stories.

    Just those other options offer more utility for stories in their eyes. It is why a Priest wants to probably completely tear down Dick's character and make him more angsty. Turn him into a darker character that he is actually interested in writing. Since he views that Dick should resent Bruce more and was raised in an abusive relationship with him training him to be a child solider.

  15. #255
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    Lobdell and Jurgan’s are old school. They are conditioned to churn out factory like, trope heavy, quick to make stories. A typical issue from them goes like this, recap, padding, then what’s on the cover. Rinse and repeat. Red Hood is in the same situation as Dick. His purpose these days is to just facilitate Lobdell. While every once in a while another writer might come around a put him in a Batman story or have him pop up in an event, it’s never at the center. Much like Nightwing was often used. Be it FE or what have you.
    And the thing is, I’m pretty sure writers are told no. Remember the Earth squad of Nightwing and Waller in No Justice, or how Dick was going to pop up in Action prior to Leviathan. Which bare in mind was saturated with Grayson lore. Regardless if creators want to use Dick now, for the past 2 years Dick has been untouchable. Even if anyone wanted to go near Ric, which most relevant creators probably don’t, he is off the table. Ric has oddly been protected.

    At the same time though, mediocrity breeds disinterest. No one is interested in Dick right now. Not even fans, so why would creators be. It’s DC job is to make their characters interesting and appealing to audiences. But they are not interested in doing that, clearly, what they are interested in is having books for creators they like to be able to get some work with.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-19-2020 at 12:19 AM.

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