Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

**Godlike13** · 10-01-2020, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Drako

They fought sometimes, but you can find more instances of them being cool with each other. She even recall him making her laugh before going to bludhaven.

Maybe their relationship was worse after the Deathstroke stuff, but they were working fine together in Gates of Gotham.

I don't know if thats true. Its honestly like half and half. After the Deathstroke reveal it was all antagonistic from the Teen Titans knock out to the multiple fights right up until Reborn. Before that she beat him up when him and Babs broke up, and even after Flashpoint the first thing her character did on her return is attack him LoL. It actually kind of surprising how confrontational many of their interactions are.

**Konja7** · 10-01-2020, 08:22 PM

Here is the interview where Wolfman spoke about the reasons for the change of identity to Nightwing:

https://13thdimension.com/behind-the...-of-nightwing/

It confirms that DC doesn't just want Dick/Robin be partner of Batman again, but they also want him to be younger. Wolfman doesn't want to lost Dick (and New Teen Titans sold more than Batman at that time), so Nightwing was the compromise.

I wonder what was the idea of DC at that time.

**Restingvoice** · 10-02-2020, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Konja7

Here is the interview where Wolfman spoke about the reasons for the change of identity to Nightwing:

https://13thdimension.com/behind-the...-of-nightwing/

It confirms that DC doesn't just want Dick/Robin be partner of Batman again, but they also want him to be younger. Wolfman doesn't want to lost Dick (and New Teen Titans sold more than Batman at that time), so Nightwing was the compromise.

I wonder what was the idea of DC at that time.

" Again, because Batman really needed a partner."
"Teen Titans—which I was still on at the time—was way outselling Batman "

That's the idea. Robin Dick Grayson once doubled Batman sales, they want to do it again.
Dennis O'Neil returning Batman to his darker root apparently worked for a while in the 70s, but then maybe it got stale? Dick found success with Titans and DC thought... hey let's bring this gold-bringer boy back to Batman

**Claude** · 10-02-2020, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by Drako

Snyder talked about a little bit in some interview last week, he is still doing it.
He also said he was never a fan of the Ric storyline.

https://twitter.com/DCVILLAIN/status...81118445805568

Oh, cool - that's more definitive than I'd expected! Thanks a lot for that.

**Avi** · 10-02-2020, 04:02 AM

Fingers crossed that Snyder will be able to give us some good Dick Grayson content. It's great to know he is still working on it. I have to say, I had already given up hope.

**Konja7** · 10-02-2020, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by Restingvoice

" Again, because Batman really needed a partner."
"Teen Titans—which I was still on at the time—was way outselling Batman "

That's the idea. Robin Dick Grayson once doubled Batman sales, they want to do it again.
Dennis O'Neil returning Batman to his darker root apparently worked for a while in the 70s, but then maybe it got stale? Dick found success with Titans and DC thought... hey let's bring this gold-bringer boy back to Batman

Well, New Teen Titans sells more than Batman (I didn't know it was the double).

I don't think DC believes Robin Dick was so important for the success of New Teen Titans. Therefore, they were willing to return Dick (younger) to Batman.

It would have sense, previous Teen Titans comics wasn't so succesful until the New Teen Titans comic appear.

Maybe they weren't sure that New Teen Titans's popularity would last.

Curiously, if this call happened some years later, Wolfman couldn't avoid this, since New Teen Titans would lost its popularity.

**Restingvoice** · 10-02-2020, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by Konja7

Well, New Teen Titans sells more than Batman (I didn't know it was the double).

I don't think DC believes Robin Dick was so important for the success of New Teen Titans. Therefore, they were willing to return Dick (younger) to Batman.

Hmm... more like... Robin Dick is one of their most well-known characters, and right at that time, one of their most well-known characters is in the most popular book with the most readers. So logically, if that character a lot of people read move to Batman, then the readers would continue reading him in Batman.

(The double part I was talking about when Robin was first introduced back in the 40s, but forget about that)

**Konja7** · 10-02-2020, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Restingvoice

Hmm... more like... Robin Dick is one of their most well-known characters, and right at that time, one of their most well-known characters is in the most popular book with the most readers. So logically, if that character a lot of people read move to Batman, then the readers would continue reading him in Batman.

(The double part I was talking about when Robin was first introduced back in the 40s, but forget about that)

I doubt the idea was that readers in NTT would move to Batman, since DC wants a younger Robin/Dick Grayson. That was taking away one of the main attractives of NTT.

They just seem to want that Batman has his sidekick again. That's why they accepted to create a new Robin.

That said, there wasn't many earths (or something like that) at that time? Why they don't put a younger Dick Grayson with Batman in one, while an older Dick Graysom with NTT in another.

Or there were plans for Crisis at that time?

**Digifiend** · 10-02-2020, 05:19 AM

Crisis can't have been planned yet at the time, as both Donna and Lilith received updated origins before the Crisis (Donna was 3 issues before Dick became Nightwing, and Lilith 7 issues after), only to have them retconned due to Wonder Woman's reboot.

**Restingvoice** · 10-02-2020, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Konja7

I doubt the idea was that readers in NTT would move to Batman, since DC wants a younger Robin/Dick Grayson. That was taking away one of the main attractives of NTT.

They just seem to want that Batman has his sidekick again. That's why they accepted to create a new Robin.

That said, there wasn't many earths (or something like that) at that time? Why they don't put a younger Dick Grayson with Batman in one, while an older Dick Graysom with NTT in another.

Or there were plans for Crisis at that time?

This is DC we're talking about. Their plans to increase sales are very simplistic and lacking in logic or long term planning. We got the death of superheroes, character assassination, unmasking, amnesia new direction yay, replacements, a wedding without a wedding, aging down characters, hoping to attract TV audience by copying the lineup but none of the characterizations, rebooting one part of the universe but not the others, or just straight-up picking writers who know nothing about the characters and refusing to learn because they want to make their own thing...

I'm not gonna be surprised if they've been like that since the 80s (the partial reboot was in the 80s)

Nightwing debuts in 1984, Crisis in 1985, but they made Jason circus boy, which is a copy of Dick, so I don't know if Crisis is the reason.

**Badou** · 10-02-2020, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Konja7

Here is the interview where Wolfman spoke about the reasons for the change of identity to Nightwing:

https://13thdimension.com/behind-the...-of-nightwing/

It confirms that DC doesn't just want Dick/Robin be partner of Batman again, but they also want him to be younger. Wolfman doesn't want to lost Dick (and New Teen Titans sold more than Batman at that time), so Nightwing was the compromise.

I wonder what was the idea of DC at that time.

Interesting to see that Wolfman didn't think Nightwing would be that popular, or at least not as popular as he became. That probably explains how the character was used in the Titans book up until the Batman books started using him again. Where his character kind of stagnated in the Titans and was stuck in his role there. Wolfman saw Deathstroke as the breakout character from the franchise probably and who he was more interested in. Which is why Deathstroke got that solo book by him maybe. He was also the kind of character that fit the 90s style of comics very well too. So I'm not saying it was wrong for Wolfman to look at Deathstroke as the breakout character from his Titans because he kind of was. I just wonder if Wolfman ever thought Nightwing should get a solo book or if he never really looked at the character like that back then.

I dunno, I already discussed my thoughts on the whole Robin to Nightwing transition a while back in this thread. No need to go over all my thoughts again, but looking back at everything I think in the long run it was the wrong move for Dick's character to give up the Robin identity. He's done well as Nightwing, but it will never be Robin. That era where he made that transition we saw the Titans franchise sort of collapse while the Batman franchise became a critical and commercial powerhouse again on the backs of really influential writers. Even if it meant deaging Dick to be Robin again I think it would have been the best move in the long run for the character's success.

Of course I can say that because we have the luxury to see what happened to the Titans franchise. Had the franchise evolved and retained its popularity the way the Uncanny X-Men did, which was the other huge series in the 80s, maybe my feelings would be completely different. Where Nightwing might have been able to grow into more of a modern Cyclops-type of role in the DCU where the Titans were still a powerhouse franchise for DC with Dick acting as this influential character. But this is all just going down the "what if" rabbit hole which you could do for any franchise or character, lol.

**AmiMizuno** · 10-02-2020, 06:09 AM

I mean they didn't have to take him to the Batman editor. He could have gone into the JL. They would have somehow put him back into Batman family somehow. Even X-Men at times they were very big in the 90s but things kind of fell apart

**Restingvoice** · 10-02-2020, 07:18 PM

Batman 100 preview
tumblr_2f4de891295d797ee197c49a4da13546_33d58661_640.jpg

**Avi** · 10-03-2020, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Restingvoice

Batman 100 preview
tumblr_2f4de891295d797ee197c49a4da13546_33d58661_640.jpg

Yeah, no that sadly doesn't make me look forward to the issue at all. Art is nice of course but that's a given.

Hope we get less exposition in JL this time and see some more of the team dynamic especially with Vic and Kory joining. I'm kinda starting to like Dick's design in-page and on some of the variants.

**CPSparkles** · 10-03-2020, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Avi

Yeah, no that sadly doesn't make me look forward to the issue at all. Art is nice of course but that's a given.

Hope we get less exposition in JL this time and see some more of the team dynamic especially with Vic and Kory joining. I'm kinda starting to like Dick's design in-page and on some of the variants.

The art for the JL Death metal tie is sick AF. Looking forward to it. Not picking up any of this Joker War crap. It just doesn't feel geniune.

The family together feels hollow. Like it's all for nostalgia. Dick Grayson coming back in Batman doesn't feel right [though I guess he was shot in batman]

him coming back without Damian there also feels off though at least we have two of the fam who gave a shit when he was shot present for his return.

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