Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[Ascended]

I think the problem is that writers have tried to invest in original love interests for all three of them and it just hasn't worked in the long-term. Babs has now had a slew of forgettable boyfriends and Kori had...Roy and that police officer's brother from her solo book? I don't think the writers weren't trying to do a genuine romantic development, it just didn't make any sizeable impact (as has been the case with most of Dick's love interests that aren't Babs, Kori, or even Helena).

I think one of the big issues is that the writers have tried to invest in new love interests but have rushed things too quickly, likely knowing that they wouldn't be on the book for long and editorial wouldn't enforce the next writer to follow through. Like, consider Shawn; it didn't take too damn long for them to go from "nice to meet you" to "I'd lose my mind if something happened to you!" There was no organic, natural build up and that left the whole thing feeling artificial and fake. No wonder fans didn't give a damn about her or her relationship with Dick. And this applies to pretty much every love interest introduced for any of the three characters; if the new love interest isn't just boring and bland to begin with, they don't get the time for the relationship to unfold properly.

If a new love interest is going to stick, then we need not only writers who will continue to build it up after the first guy leaves, we need editors who will enforce that consistency, and the love interest him/herself has to be compelling and interesting in their own right, and not just arm candy who exist solely for the protagonist's dramaz.

It's one of the reasons I've pushed for Power Girl so much. She's established as a character; we know who she is and what drives her as a individual, yet she isn't such a big deal she'd overshadow Dick. We know Karen Starr is Dick's type of girl, and she has history to draw from that can add to and enrich Nightwing's story, rather than just filling in as a requisite element of the genre. I've said all the same things about Kyle Rayner as a potential love interest for Kori; we know who Kyle is and can see how he and Kori could fit together and he exists as more than just a damsel for Kori to save. He's a character we're familiar and comfortable with, and not a new unknown factor.

Quality, as always, is the true problem here. DC has half assed their efforts regarding the love interests of these characters, but for a love interest to actually stick it requires real effort, time, and investment. And as we know, effort, time, and investment are the three things DC *isn't* willing to do with Nightwing, Starfire, and Babs (to a lesser extent).

[Frontier]

I think one of the big issues is that the writers have tried to invest in new love interests but have rushed things too quickly, likely knowing that they wouldn't be on the book for long and editorial wouldn't enforce the next writer to follow through. Like, consider Shawn; it didn't take too damn long for them to go from "nice to meet you" to "I'd lose my mind if something happened to you!" There was no organic, natural build up and that left the whole thing feeling artificial and fake. No wonder fans didn't give a damn about her or her relationship with Dick. And this applies to pretty much every love interest introduced for any of the three characters; if the new love interest isn't just boring and bland to begin with, they don't get the time for the relationship to unfold properly.

If a new love interest is going to stick, then we need not only writers who will continue to build it up after the first guy leaves, we need editors who will enforce that consistency, and the love interest him/herself has to be compelling and interesting in their own right, and not just arm candy who exist solely for the protagonist's dramaz.

It's one of the reasons I've pushed for Power Girl so much. She's established as a character; we know who she is and what drives her as a individual, yet she isn't such a big deal she'd overshadow Dick. We know Karen Starr is Dick's type of girl, and she has history to draw from that can add to and enrich Nightwing's story, rather than just filling in as a requisite element of the genre. I've said all the same things about Kyle Rayner as a potential love interest for Kori; we know who Kyle is and can see how he and Kori could fit together and he exists as more than just a damsel for Kori to save. He's a character we're familiar and comfortable with, and not a new unknown factor.

Quality, as always, is the true problem here. DC has half assed their efforts regarding the love interests of these characters, but for a love interest to actually stick it requires real effort, time, and investment. And as we know, effort, time, and investment are the three things DC *isn't* willing to do with Nightwing, Starfire, and Babs (to a lesser extent).

I don't think it's just a DC problem. I can't say Marvel has been much better about it (looking at all the non-MJ forgettable Peter Parker love interests that came about around BND). It's just hard to get people invested in new character as serious love interests for major characters. And I liked Shawn.

I think Power Girl would feel out of place unless they were in a team book together.

Kyle and Kori would just remind me of Kyle and Donna .

[WonderNight]

The reason why power girl would feel "out of place" is because nightwing has to conform to batman. If nightwing was a more independent hero than characters like power girl or starfire would have no problems fitting in with nightwing.

But hey people seem to love there batfam and nightwing as just another bat lieutenant. But if you what dick as just another street level batman support character that's fine like what you like. But just don't complain when we get more will they won't they with babs, more batman villains in his solo, more disconnect from the dcu and his story being blown up for the Bruce's story, because that what comes with it.

If dick was meant to stay under batman then he should've just stayed robin. What is the point of nightwing.

[AmiMizuno]

I agree. I think he should be used less in certain things. If we had to use Nightwing in Batfam books. What should be the rules?

[Rac7d*]

The reason why power girl would feel "out of place" is because nightwing has to conform to batman. If nightwing was a more independent hero than characters like power girl or starfire would have no problems fitting in with nightwing.

But hey people seem to love there batfam and nightwing as just another bat lieutenant. But if you what dick as just another street level batman support character that's fine like what you like. But just don't complain when we get more will they won't they with babs, more batman villains in his solo, more disconnect from the dcu and his story being blown up for the Bruce's story, because that what comes with it.

If dick was meant to stay under batman then he should've just stayed robin. What is the point of nightwing.

Powergirl would feel out of place Becuase she from another earth, and any story with the two of them is an elseworld.

[WonderNight]

Powergirl would feel out of place Becuase she from another earth, and any story with the two of them is an elseworld.

Dickbabs logic lol. If that's the case then how did dick and kori work in the first place? Or Clark and lois. Where she form doesn't matter what matters is where she's at currently.

[Rac7d*]

Dickbabs logic lol. If that's the case then how did dick and kori work in the first place? Or Clark and lois. Where she form doesn't matter what matters is where she's at currently.

Kori and dick exist on the same earth? Power girl is just not here. The whole super family gets together regularly powergirl is never their

[WonderNight]

I agree. I think he should be used less in certain things. If we had to use Nightwing in Batfam books. What should be the rules?

Simple! The same way other heros whi visits gotham. He's visiting so that means to you don't effect his solo (looking at you tom king). I let his solo about his story, his world etc. Just like all of the other A-listers. We already saw something like this with grayson, dick was able to visit gotham and the batfamily but still was able to have his own world and corner in the dcu with spyral.

Grayson felt like dick had his on life outside batman and in the dcu. Like he would visit the fam but moved out and on with his life. Grayson was dick moving out, nightwing is dick living in the basement.

[Ascended]

I don't think it's just a DC problem. I can't say Marvel has been much better about it (looking at all the non-MJ forgettable Peter Parker love interests that came about around BND). It's just hard to get people invested in new character as serious love interests for major characters. And I liked Shawn.

I think Power Girl would feel out of place unless they were in a team book together.

Kyle and Kori would just remind me of Kyle and Donna .

No it's not just a DC problem, it's a Big 2 problem. At this point, if you're not core Justice League or a MCU Avenger, you don't get much love. And a lot of the core League and MCU Avengers don't get much love in the comics either, just more than the rest.

I liked Shawn well enough, but that doesn't change the fact the relationship went from 0 to 60 in three issues and never felt like a cohesive, natural progression. No wonder fans generally didn't get behind it, we weren't given any reason to.

And Power Girl and Kyle are just examples here. They're my preference for new love interests but the point I was making is that a new love interest, whoever it is, needs a slow burn buildup to get fans invested and the new L.I. would benefit greatly from being a established character people are familiar with.

And no, PG doesn't really "fit" the Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented version of Nightwing DC has given us in recent years. But Dick is more than just a Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented hero and has a deep history beyond Bruce Wayne and strong connections to the more fantastical side of the DCU going as far back as his team-up adventures with Clark in the Silver Age (maybe late-ish Golden Age?) and his time in the Titans editorial. Karen doesn't "fit" solely because DC has ignored a big part of who Dick is. And that's an easy problem to solve.

[Frontier]

No it's not just a DC problem, it's a Big 2 problem. At this point, if you're not core Justice League or a MCU Avenger, you don't get much love. And a lot of the core League and MCU Avengers don't get much love in the comics either, just more than the rest.

I liked Shawn well enough, but that doesn't change the fact the relationship went from 0 to 60 in three issues and never felt like a cohesive, natural progression. No wonder fans generally didn't get behind it, we weren't given any reason to.

And Power Girl and Kyle are just examples here. They're my preference for new love interests but the point I was making is that a new love interest, whoever it is, needs a slow burn buildup to get fans invested and the new L.I. would benefit greatly from being a established character people are familiar with.

And no, PG doesn't really "fit" the Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented version of Nightwing DC has given us in recent years. But Dick is more than just a Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented hero and has a deep history beyond Bruce Wayne and strong connections to the more fantastical side of the DCU going as far back as his team-up adventures with Clark in the Silver Age (maybe late-ish Golden Age?) and his time in the Titans editorial. Karen doesn't "fit" solely because DC has ignored a big part of who Dick is. And that's an easy problem to solve.

Again, I think the relationship would probably need them to be in a team book together to work rather than happening in Dick's solo. I guess you could go for a more fantastical Nightwing solo but it would really be down to the execution.

[WonderNight]

I got some ideas .

I believe nightwing should be global, the only real reason why nightwing has a city is because batman has a city. But nightwing shouldn't be batman (batman lite hurts nightwing).

So how about nightwing being the global detective! Something like instead of blockbuster being the king pin of bludhaven he's a international king pin? And nightwing's out to shut him down.

Nightwing could do this solo or with spyral or as his JL solo/team up missions.

VegasHaven would be dicks home base for rest, down time and resources and gear. Dick would globetrotte for missions and crime fighting. He could even have halys circus or spyral back for his globetrotting.

Nightwing: agent of spyral or JL. Globetrotting around the world to take on a international kin pin, a global court of the owls, a global organization of villains.

[WonderNight]

No it's not just a DC problem, it's a Big 2 problem. At this point, if you're not core Justice League or a MCU Avenger, you don't get much love. And a lot of the core League and MCU Avengers don't get much love in the comics either, just more than the rest.

I liked Shawn well enough, but that doesn't change the fact the relationship went from 0 to 60 in three issues and never felt like a cohesive, natural progression. No wonder fans generally didn't get behind it, we weren't given any reason to.

And Power Girl and Kyle are just examples here. They're my preference for new love interests but the point I was making is that a new love interest, whoever it is, needs a slow burn buildup to get fans invested and the new L.I. would benefit greatly from being a established character people are familiar with.

And no, PG doesn't really "fit" the Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented version of Nightwing DC has given us in recent years. But Dick is more than just a Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented hero and has a deep history beyond Bruce Wayne and strong connections to the more fantastical side of the DCU going as far back as his team-up adventures with Clark in the Silver Age (maybe late-ish Golden Age?) and his time in the Titans editorial. Karen doesn't "fit" solely because DC has ignored a big part of who Dick is. And that's an easy problem to solve.

Yep dick has been so bat centric that the nightwing mantle came form superman and titans but love interest from superman and titans "don't fit" lol.

[Ascended]

Again, I think the relationship would probably need them to be in a team book together to work rather than happening in Dick's solo. I guess you could go for a more fantastical Nightwing solo but it would really be down to the execution.

Isn't everything?

For a more fantastical Nightwing concept I tend to point to Grayson and Percy's motorcycle death race arc, as well as some elements of Seeley's Rebirth run. In a Nightwing comic where he's taking down global metahuman organ traffickers, vying for a chance to sit on the Mobius Chair, and dealing with evil multiverse versions of himself, a love interest like Power Girl, Starfire, Jade, Jess Cruz, or whoever the hell, makes perfect sense.

[Claude]

Something like instead of blockbuster being the king pin of bludhaven he's a international king pin? And nightwing's out to shut him down.
.

... That's actually very good. Enough "wow, it's like the 90s again!" to carry those fans over, but instantly a different vibe and scale. Good thought!

One thing that comes up from time to time is Dick travelling as part of Haly's Circus, as in the start of Higgins' run. I have to say, as far as suspension of disbelief goes, "Nightwing only shows up in places that one circus goes, and only since that one guy started touring with them" is a tough one to swallow!

For a more fantastical Nightwing concept I tend to point to Grayson and Percy's motorcycle death race arc, as well as some elements of Seeley's Rebirth run.

Ah, sometimes I wonder where we'd be by now if we'd had two years of Percy rather than the Ric storyline. He'll never be my favourite writer, but he had legitimate big plans, was gearing up to make big changes, and was doing a decent job of the "maybe Nightwing starts streetlevel but he'll scale up" comic book storytelling that Dick doesn't often get. Felt like it was cut off just as it was about to show its potential.

[WonderNight]

Oh I get that, It why I like spyral. The way to go about it is people don't know nightwings in town. The only people that knows nightwing town are the bad guys he just beat up, and they dont know halys in town. Or dick just travel on his own. Or rejoins spyral with helena or artemis crock or bette ashis partner.