Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[Robanker]

Right? Vindication!



I'm not that familiar with his work, honestly. I read like, two random issues of Injustice Year One and that's about it. But it's not Taylor that thrills me so much as it's the fact that DC put one of their bigger talents on the book. I have liked what little I've seen from Taylor but mostly I'm just happy that DC didn't get bargain bin basement creators.

And I'm fine with Harley showing up. Taylor writes a damn fine Harley, if those random Injustice issues I read are any indication, and I've long thought the two of them would have a interesting dynamic; there's a lot of common experience between them, if you turn your head and squint.



Bludhaven was never the problem, and still isn't. The lack of consistency the entire Nightwing IP has been plagued with is the problem. Now, I'd rather see Dick travel the world (and beyond) instead of working out of a single city. But Bludhaven, for better or worse, *is* Dick's town and I'm perfectly willing to give Taylor a chance to make it really shine.

Hell, right now I figure we fans should be pretty upbeat and happy about this. Maybe Taylor isn't the writer some of us wanted, maybe what we're hearing about the direction isn't what we'd do if we were writing ourselves, but DC has put one of their major talents on the book, seemingly for a long run, and that has been sorely needed. It doesn't make up for all the abuse over the years, DC is gonna have to do more than this if they want to earn the fandom's forgiveness. But I'll be damned if this isn't a really good first step. This looks like genuine investment, and I applaud it.

I'm more than happy to welcome Taylor to the book. I hope he does well and sticks around for a long damn time. Let's be honest, the last time Dick got talent this high profile was when Dixon launched the solo twenty+ years ago.

And if nothing else Taylor is giving us an adorable little three legged puppy, and nobody should ever be upset over getting a dog.

More dogs are always welcome! Hey, I've been shooting for a Brave and the Bold volume with Nightwing as the anchor so you don't have to convince me of a globetrotting team-up Nightwing book.

My problem with Taylor is that he uses his alternate universes as a crutch. Big stuff gets to happen so you ignore he is terrible at voices for a lot of characters. Who cares if Diana sounds weird, TIM DRAKE JUST DIED?! You know what I mean? It gives progression at the expense of, well, characterization. Keep in mind he had Diana simp for Superman in one book and get one-shot by him in another (where Clark himself forgot how to use his other abilities to take out Flash because we needed him off the board). Where Aquaman can get killed by a simple arrow. Where Lex freely admits Batman was smarter than him. I can go on.

He also shills Harley a lot and I just can't stand that character these days, but that's my bias. Harls got to kill everyone with the Joker and have her absolution too, only without the redemption. Still haven't let that go. Not sure I ever will because every time I see her listed as a victim as some sort of scapegoat for her bloodshed, I think "well what do you call all the people she helped kill then?!" She could be redeemed, but she needs to be walked through the mud like Hal was and like Wally is now. And yet, she was just decoupled from the Joker and stayed away long enough that the Bat family work with her now? Give me a break. She killed people, and I don't just mean that retconned story where she blew up children. I don't really see her and Nightwing ever working together outside of corporate greed trumping story, which of course happens and will continue to. She simped the guy who crippled Barbara Gordon as a prop to get at Jim Gordon. She helped him do it to other people. Dick would never be her friend, even if he was able to forgive her after she sufficiently redeemed herself. And that's not him being an asshole for not letting it go. Nobody is required to entirely absolve others of transgressions done to them in the past. If someone runs over someone you care about, you never actually have to be their friend just because they made amends to society. You can forgive them if you have that level of empathy, but even then, not required. She helped the guy who did it to Barbara. Helped him escape justice time and again. I do think Dick is empathetic enough to one day forgive Harley, knowing she was a victim herself, but it would take time. Even then, I can't abide them being friends or having a good relationship.

I want to be wrong on Taylor. A lot of people love his work and he seems like a swell dude, but his work hasn't impressed me thus far aside from small bits and pieces that get posted on Reddit.

That said, I acknowledge the guy is a top talent in the industry and it's great Nightwing has been given that high profile a team.

Finally, tragically, it seems the good ship PowerWing remains at port for a while longer.

[Badou]

Bludhaven was never the problem, and still isn't.

HARD disagreement there. When you are trying to build a house in the mud it doesn't matter how you do it because the structure is going to fall apart regardless. The entire concept of Bludhaven in and of itself is critically flawed. At its core it doesn't work as a setting for Dick because Bludhaven doesn't present any actual value on its own and Dick's ties to the city are completely superficial. You'd have to rewrite Dick's entire history to make it work.

I said the same things before Seeley's return to the city when nearly everyone was saying that this time Bludhaven will work. Fast forward 4 years later and I was right. When Taylor's run is over and Bludhaven is still worthless maybe a few more people will come to my side, lol.

[Ascended]

More dogs are always welcome!

Now we need the DC/Marvel crossover; "3 Legged Puppy vs. Pizza Dog! Which maimed mutt will end up in the muzzle!?!?!"

My problem with Taylor is that he uses his alternate universes as a crutch. Big stuff gets to happen so you ignore he is terrible at voices for a lot of characters.

And that's something I haven't really seen. I thought he did well with Ollie and Harley in that one Injustice issue I read but I'm in unknown waters here.

Hopefully this won't be a problem in a main canon title where "Elseworld!" isn't a viable excuse. With Injustice he was dealing with NetherRealms' versions of the characters, so....maybe that was part of it? Or maybe he's just one of those writers who bends characters to fit the plot, I really don't know.

Don't blame you for the Harley bias. I love the character and don't have the problems a lot of posters here do, but I get where you're coming from. DC really pushes her in places where they shouldn't, and her working with the Bats is f*cking idiotic. And no, I don't think she and Dick would get along very well, but it'd be damn fun to watch.

Finally, tragically, it seems the good ship PowerWing remains at port for a while longer.

That ship isn't leaving the dock until one of us takes over the book. But as the captain of the USS PowerWing I give my permission to any DC employee reading this post to use the couple, free of charge.

HARD disagreement there. When you are trying to build a house in the mud it doesn't matter how you do it because the structure is going to fall apart regardless.

I know. We've talked about the city before and this is something we're just not gonna see eye to eye on. You say the house is built on a foundation of mud, but I say it's fiction and it's only mud if you allow it to be. I get what you're saying but I think it's a false corollary.

[RedQueen]

Going back to his roots, I don't have much of a problem with. The energy Tom Taylor talks about putting into the story is what appeals to me.

And he knows how to write a decent relationship, so I think if he is reviving Dickbabs then I trust he's gonna get them out of this will they/wont they horribly written limbo. At least he'll commit to something.

[Rac7d*]

HARD disagreement there. When you are trying to build a house in the mud it doesn't matter how you do it because the structure is going to fall apart regardless. The entire concept of Bludhaven in and of itself is critically flawed. At its core it doesn't work as a setting for Dick because Bludhaven doesn't present any actual value on its own and Dick's ties to the city are completely superficial. You'd have to rewrite Dick's entire history to make it work.

I said the same things before Seeley's return to the city when nearly everyone was saying that this time Bludhaven will work. Fast forward 4 years later and I was right. When Taylor's run is over and Bludhaven is still worthless maybe a few more people will come to my side, lol.

Bludhaven worth is something that come up here tri annually at least and I think I have been here a few years now. Yes it will never be Gotham and it will never be Metropolis bus so what. I don’t know what green arrow or flash city is and I don’t care. It’s his turf and his home under his watch. He orange have to share it with 24 other heroes like Spider-Man does NYC or even daredevil in Hell’s Kitchen. Bludhaven was one of his strongest runs location. Hell at even rebirth while a bit slow still engaging. Consistency is good.

He can still have globe trottin space flying Diane soon bending stories with the Titans. All while maintaining his own base just like Batman and Superman.

More importantly we will finally have corporate synergy. People who read Nightwing are gonna see him on tv doing the same on tv and vice versa. Even better this season will feature Barbra as Oracle just as this new storyline will. Taylor could be creating an outline for a potential spin-off for them.

[Badou]

Bludhaven worth is something that come up here tri annually at least and I think I have been here a few years now. Yes it will never be Gotham and it will never be Metropolis bus so what. I don’t know what green arrow or flash city is and I don’t care. It’s his turf and his home under his watch. He orange have to share it with 24 other heroes like Spider-Man does NYC or even daredevil in Hell’s Kitchen. Bludhaven was one of his strongest runs location. Hell at even rebirth while a bit slow still engaging. Consistency is good.

He can still have globe trottin space flying Diane soon bending stories with the Titans. All while maintaining his own base just like Batman and Superman.

More importantly we will finally have corporate synergy. People who read Nightwing are gonna see him on tv doing the same on tv and vice versa. Even better this season will feature Barbra as Oracle just as this new storyline will. Taylor could be creating an outline for a potential spin-off for them.

The core problem is that Bludhaven will never be Dick's home no matter how hard DC tries to say it is. Gotham and Halys Circus will always take precedence over it. As much as people want to act like Bludhaven is this super important place for his character it really isn't. It's completely hollow. Dick isn't from Bludhaven, he wasn't raised there, none of his family is from there, none of his friends or allies are from there, none of his major love interests are from there, none of his teams or organizations he is part of are there, he has no job tying him there, he didn't created the Robin identity there, and he didn't even create the Nightwing identity there. These are foundational problems with the idea of Bludhaven. How can people act like it is his home and isn't a completely flawed concept when it is missing every single story element that would make it his home? It's ridiculous.

I mean 25 years later and you still have these major problems. Putting a fresh coat of paint on it or making it more like Vegas doesn't address any of these core issues. They have to constantly drag things from Gotham to make it useable because Bludhaven on its own offers nothing. Every single other character that has a solo and is anchored to some city has actual ties to that city. A Flash in Central City, or a Green Arrow in Star City, have actual deep ties and bonds to it, but Dick has none of that in Bludhaven. People are just blinded by nostalgia for Dixon's run where they think it represents some important element to his character and they try and copy it over and over, but in reality it is worthless.

It's just a poor, watered down attempt to make him into a Batman, Spider-man, or Daredevil-lite character by filling that generic version of what Gotham, Hell's Kitchen, or NYC is supposed to be for their respective heroes, but Dick isn't like those other heroes. The whole "a hero needs a city to protect" is such a dated idea that really limits Dick as a character when other characters already fill that role better than he ever will. He's had a very unique hero journey and to force him into some shallow, generic mold of a city that he has no real ties to just so he can do his best Daredevil impersonation and work some boring normal job stunts his character. I'll never understand why people want that. They should focus on the things that make him unique and enhance those and raise that value up rather than try and keep him stuck in some uninspired box. He was a kid that grew up in a traveling circus, became Robin to work with Batman, created a team full of teenage superheroes, and then became Nightwing. Nothing about his character suggests that he would be at home anchored to some city he has no ties to. It's the complete opposite of what his character suggest he would want.

All it really offers is to be a good holding cell for when DC wants get his character out of the way like with the Ric story. It was easier to just shove him off to Bludhaven where he can be ignored, or use it as an excuse when they want to say he couldn't do something because he had his stupid Bludhaven "responsibilities", but there is also the issue of splitting his character between three locations. Bludhaven, Gotham, and globetrotting. It's not good storytelling to split his character up between three settings like this, as you end up spreading the stories too thin, and between the three of them Bludhaven is the most useless by far. Dick should be a global hero on the move with Gotham being the place he calls home and returns to when he can. It is so much simpler and streamlined while letting his "home" actually be a place he has deep ties and actual affection for.

Also as for that "corporate synergy" the next season of Titans takes place in Gotham. Not Bludhaven. Also you know what Bludhaven is in the Young Justice show? It is a suburb of Gotham not its own city. So even in other media they get how unnecessary Bludhaven is as an actual city, but the comics can't figure it out.

[Badou]

Okay, I think I got all the Bludhaven stuff out of my system for now, lol.

[Restingvoice]

Okay so the summary, as I suspected after paying attention for a while when it comes to Bludhaven is basically "I want something better/more for Dick" vs "It's good enough"

[WonderNight]

Yeah I agree with badou. Dick should be out and about with the other superheroes in the dcu instead of just another bat.

Fans want nightwing to be an A-lister well A-listers don't do small scale. Go big or go home.

[Hcmarvel]

People are just blinded by nostalgia for Dixon's run where they think it represents some important element to his character and they try and copy it over and over, but in reality it is worthless.

I don't really have a dog in the fight but I do think it's important to remember that the Dixon run is where a lot of people grew to love Nightwing, especially AS NIGHTWING (as opposed to Robin). It's a very significant part of the character's publishing history.

Also, someone doesn't need to be born in a city to adopt it and call it home.

[Godlike13]

Actually Bludhaven exist so that they can try to emulate a formula made popular by the A-listers. I can take it or leave it at this point, it’s a trap, but it’ll come down to whether Taylor falls into it or not.

[Batman Begins 2005]

Not sure about the use of a Zucco (i.e. I'd prefer something "new" and not tied to history) but Snyder managed to make it work in The Black Mirror so let's see.

To be fair, over half the people on this Forum could have been introduced as the new writer and it'll still be welcome following the Ric debacle.

I co-sign on all.

[Batman Begins 2005]

If you want to read Tom Taylor's best work, go for Batman Annual #3 and Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man #14.

[Claude]

If you want to read Tom Taylor's best work, go for Batman Annual #3 and Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man #14.

Was that Batman Annual the Alfred story? I do remember really liking that.

[Pohzee]

That Alfred annual was the issue that made me fine with him dying.