Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[AmiMizuno]

If Haley Circus can be saved with retcon how would you want it to be written?

I mean Diana went from being the same age in the beginning to being oldest of the trinity. So it’s not impossible for them to be retcon out of

[Ascended]

The Haley’s thing from the New 52 was a weird Court plot, yet nevertheless important to the Court’s mythology. It’s not something I see them undoing as they seem to value the Court. It’s also their lazy go to with Dick.

No, I don't expect DC to erase this. And I generally follow the "move forward, don't regress" mindset. I'm against reboots on principal (despite DC not agreeing with me).

But the thing with Haly's? The only character at the circus that really, ultimately mattered is Haly. He's been part of Dick's story from the start, and you could say that he's one of the only long-standing supporting cast members that is truly Dick's, and not tied to another character. And he's dead! Except (if you wanted to change it without a reboot), that wasn't really Haly! It was a clone the Court grew to manipulate Dick! And the real Haly has been held in a safe house ever since, and once Dick eventually rescues him, Haly re-opens the circus! There, problem solved and it doesn't change the events of the continuity. Does it make sense? No. Is it a weird, dumb idea? Absolutely. But the Court worship a bat demon and have enacted some really stupid plots in the past, so this fits right in.

Haly and the circus could be brought back easily with a simple "you thought you knew, but what *really* happened was....." thing. I don't generally like that kind of revisionism but it *can* be used to positive effect. And getting Haly back would be a net gain.

[Godlike13]

As long as the Court still exists, it would loom over even that ridiculousness. Not to mention the more ridiculous hoops they jump through, the more ridiculous Haley’s would become. Further changing it in ridiculous ways. The Court fundamentally corrupts Haley’s. It can’t be looked at as it was as long as the Court exists.

[Ascended]

It doesn't have to be looked at as it was though.

Dick grew up thinking of the circus as a safe place where his happiest years were. The fact that he later finds out it wasn't as perfect as he thought isn't a big thing. How many of us grow up and find out our hometowns weren't as idyllic as we thought? That sounds like story potential to me more than it sounds like a negative thing.

Is it convoluted? Sure, but no more than anything else. Dick found out the Court used to recruit from the circus. Then he thought Haly died. He finds out later it wasn't really Haly, and Haly re-opens the circus. It's not complex.

I'm not saying it's what *should* happen. I'm just saying it'd be viable. Maybe not what you'd like to read personally but not a narrative dead end. Hell, Ric still not having his memories has more plot holes than this.

[AmiMizuno]

I mean a if not the circus whatever route? I mean if we place him as a actor would that make sense? If he likes to help others in careers?

There is no point in going backwards, trying “fix” the character old pitfalls. That has proven to just be an excuse for the current Bat office to get away with being lazy. They fix Nightwing by moving on to trying new pastures. With fresh creators and new ideas.

Not when they keep making the same mistakes with these new ideas. I can’t see what’s your point. All the other characters have their issues fix and they are better for it. Diana was the worst of them all. They been a lot careful with her. Going back to her actually history and not doing the same mistakes.

[dropkickjake]

As long as the Court still exists, it would loom over even that ridiculousness. Not to mention the more ridiculous hoops they jump through, the more ridiculous Haley’s would become. Further changing it in ridiculous ways. The Court fundamentally corrupts Haley’s. It can’t be looked at as it was as long as the Court exists.

Thats... well, quite uncreative in my opinion. All it takes would be for Mr Haly, Dick's Mr Haly, to be the first one to stand up to the court, to say, "No. I'm not going on with this, you can't have him." That actually makes his connection with Dick even stronger.

[AmiMizuno]

Thats... well, quite uncreative in my opinion. All it takes would be for Mr Haly, Dick's Mr Haly, to be the first one to stand up to the court, to say, "No. I'm not going on with this, you can't have him." That actually makes his connection with Dick even stronger.

Dick can also figure ways to take down the court at least in Haley's. Your acting like comic writers hasn't saved terrible character storylines or other things. So why can't it happen with Nightwing? SUperman just had his parents come back. Everything gets retcon.

[WonderNight]

Dick can also figure ways to take down the court at least in Haley's. Your acting like comic writers hasn't saved terrible character storylines or other things. So why can't it happen with Nightwing? SUperman just had his parents come back. Everything gets retcon.

I think what godlike is saying is that DC will choose the court of owls over haley's so they won't let a retcon happen.

[Godlike13]

Haly’s being a breeding ground for the Court roots before even Dick’s Haly. Dick’s home is responsible for countless zombie assassins. His great grandfather is the face of them. It’s not a good and happy place anymore. Saying it’s not perfect is a huge understatement.
So any Haly reopening a circus that did horrible things, and existed to feed monsters, is more complex then the Haly’s he knew didn’t really die. Or him saying it wasn’t me. Its corruption goes beyond just Dick’s Haly. As long a Court exists, Haly’s circus’ role in the Court is not something easily brushed off. Nor is something DC would brush off. Hell modern day circuses can’t even brush off their cruelty to animals.

I think what godlike is saying is that DC will choose the court of owls over haley's so the won't let a retcon happen.

Exactly.

[dropkickjake]

Haly’s being a breeding ground for the Court roots before even Dick’s Haly. Dick’s home is responsible for countless zombie assassins. His great grandfather is the face of them. It’s not a good and happy place anymore. Saying it’s not perfect is a huge understatement.
So any Haly reopening a circus that did horrible things, and existed to feed monsters, is more complex then the Haly’s he knew didn’t really die. Or him saying it wasn’t me. Its corruption goes beyond just Dick’s Haly. As long a Court exists, Haly’s circus’ role in the Court is not something easily brushed off. Nor is something DC would brush off. Hell modern day circuses can’t even brush off their cruelty to animals.



Exactly.

Really think this is far too simplistic man. I think that Mr. Haly being the first in a long line to ringleaders to refuse to play along with the court strengthens his character, preserves Dick "safe" home, and still allows the Court to exist and have used Haly's as a recruiting ground for a long, long time. To your point that DC will keep the Owls over Haly's, I'll agree, but I think DC cares very little for the Haly's aspect of it because that was tied so closely to Dick rather than Bruce. They could lose that aspect and DC wouldn't even blink.

To your point about actual circuses and animal cruelty... That just shows that comics are clearly different operate under a different set of rules than real life.

[Godlike13]

Eeh, fair enough.

[Ascended]

Haly’s being a breeding ground for the Court roots before even Dick’s Haly. Dick’s home is responsible for countless zombie assassins. His great grandfather is the face of them. It’s not a good and happy place anymore. Saying it’s not perfect is a huge understatement.
So any Haly reopening a circus that did horrible things, and existed to feed monsters, is more complex then the Haly’s he knew didn’t really die. Or him saying it wasn’t me. Its corruption goes beyond just Dick’s Haly. As long a Court exists, Haly’s circus’ role in the Court is not something easily brushed off. Nor is something DC would brush off. Hell modern day circuses can’t even brush off their cruelty to animals.

I get what you're saying. I just don't see it as a deal breaker. Haly himself can be redeemed without actually changing any past events, and the rest of the circus crew is either dead or non-entities who don't matter (I don't think any of the New52 performers were around when the Graysons were flying). Haly can tell the Court, if they even approach him again (at this point would they see the same value in the circus, especially when their involvement is known?), to sod off. Write him as a victim instead of an accomplice. The Court's previous involvement with the circus, as well as Haly's refusal to work with them, can be a source of narratives and give Dick something to chew on as he reconciles his childhood memories to the reality he discovers as an adult.

The circus isn't a hill I'd die on. Dick's done okay by himself all these years without that being a factor and can continue to do okay. But at the same time, it's one of the few things Dick has that is truly his, baked into his origins. And I can't think of a viable reason to not use it, in some shape or form (not necessarily exactly as it was). How much of Dick's world actually belongs to him, and wasn't handed down by someone else? Even the name came from Clark. The closest things he has to a nemesis all come from Batman. His closest friends come from the Titans. Haly and the circus are one of the few things that has remained a part of Dick's story throughout the years and adaptations and one of the only concepts that didn't come from somewhere else. Seriously, why wouldn't you want to utilize that? Just because the New52 stuff adds a Court shaped complication? That's an opportunity, not a detriment, in my mind.

Obviosuly YMMV, and that's cool, but even if the New52 didn't do great things with the circus I think it'd benefit Dick a lot to use it; the guy needs more stuff that is his, and his alone.

[Digifiend]

All of the Robins get their best friends from outside of the Bat family, not just Dick. Dick's are Wally and Donna. Jason's seems to be Roy (RIP), who was also Dick's friend. Tim's are Conner and Bart, and Damian has Jon. Being a bat is a lonely job. Being a Titan, Outlaw, or Young Justice member, or Super Son counteracts that.

As for the circus thing, unfortunately it's a telltale sign that Dick was first created 80 years ago. No way would someone created now be a circus kid - they're a lot less commonplace.

[Rac7d*]

All of the Robins get their best friends from outside of the Bat family, not just Dick. Dick's are Wally and Donna. Jason's seems to be Roy (RIP), who was also Dick's friend. Tim's are Conner and Bart, and Damian has Jon. Being a bat is a lonely job. Being a Titan, Outlaw, or Young Justice member, or Super Son counteracts that.

As for the circus thing, unfortunately it's a telltale sign that Dick was first created 80 years ago. No way would someone created now be a circus kid - they're a lot less commonplace.

Well if they allow dick to age it can be retained, I was time drakes age last time I saw the circus, in the future he might just be gymnast

[Godlike13]

Circus kids were never common place. As an orgin I think it still works fine, as a direction for him as an adult. Not so much.