Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[Godlike13]

So, I dropped NW a good few issues before seely left and then got wind of Ric and some of the dialogues I saw was cringe so I didn't bother, have things gotten better or worse?

Worse. They forcing it to be stretched even more, repeating premises they literally just did.

[AmiMizuno]

It would also give Dick access to other things. I mean he could be part of JLD at times due to Zataana.

[Godlike13]

As much as I dislike the Dick-Babs ship, I've actually considered that too (or a Dick-Damian book, or Dick-Tim, or Dick running the whole Gotham Knights crew, etc). But I don't know that it would work; pooling the fanbases is only viable if there's little overlap between them in the first place. Do most people who buy Nightwing (when it's good) also buy Batgirl (when it's good)? I've never seen market research on it but I'd assume the fanbases are largely the same, so a co-lead title isn't likely to sell much better than the solo's.

Would a simple relaunch be able to get the sales numbers back up on Nightwing? Who knows? But wingnuts are a passionate and loyal fanbase; I mean look at how long it took for the sales on Ric to finally start falling. I'd bet that if you put Dick back in proper shape with a fairly respectable creative team and a shiny new #1 on the cover, sales will start to recover relatively fast. Might take some time for them to get back to their old heights, but I don't think it would take long for sales to start the recovery process.

Wingnuts are the easiest sell, it’s getting a general audience that is going to be hard to get back. The readers who could be interested in Dick even though he might not be their very favorite. That’s were numbers over 30k are. Numbers aren’t just going to bounce back after 2 years of being the worse thing on the selves. That’s why quality control and character protection is important. The more shit they produce with the character, the more audiences start seeing the character as shit. Dick will be lucky if his next series levels off in the bottom 30’s now after Ric is done. Remember how people thought all it would take is a decent creative team and a new #1 to get the YJ characters to sell again.

[WonderNight]

God. You are giving me nightmares when Kyle Rayner said Zatanna was old enough to be her mother. That was sad.

yeah DCU just think zee's age there just show her as her 20s.

Zatanna and Bruce friendship is good but the problem is as batman is aged so to is zatanna. When zatanna is old enough to be tim and stephanie's mother it doesn't feel right and doesn't work with how DC see and uses her.

[Restingvoice]

Travis Moore's Dick for auction

tumblr_53c273a88f0d2575e798df40714b5a05_94097762_640.jpg

The pretty eyelashes are always there in his art, but he puts an extra pinch on the lips for this one

[Godlike13]

Shouldn’t he be auctioning his Ric...

[Digifiend]

yeah DCU just think zee's age there just show her as her 20s.

Zatanna and Bruce friendship is good but the problem is as batman is aged so to is zatanna. When zatanna is old enough to be tim and stephanie's mother it doesn't feel right and doesn't work with how DC see and uses her.

Even the Young Justice cartoon used her as the Team's "sixth ranger", as TV Tropes calls it (the main team was six members, she was the seventh member of the Team, with one more, Rocket, an "eleventh hour ranger", joining before the end of the first season), instead of as a Justice Leaguer (she did join the League after the timeskip at the start of season 2 though). So it's clear they see her as part of the younger generation. YJ may have combined Dick's and Tim's generations, but Zee was the only traditional (i.e. not Titans graduate) JLA member to end up with the kids instead of the adults.

[WonderNight]

Even the Young Justice cartoon used her as the Team's "sixth ranger", as TV Tropes calls it (the main team was six members, she was the seventh member of the Team, with one more, Rocket, an "eleventh hour ranger", joining before the end of the first season), instead of as a Justice Leaguer (she did join the League after the timeskip at the start of season 2 though). So it's clear they see her as part of the younger generation. YJ may have combined Dick's and Tim's generations, but Zee was the only traditional (i.e. not Titans graduate) JLA member to end up with the kids instead of the adults.

Also zatanna being younger make her father not being around more impactful, and allows her father to be young enough tohave been around with the JL even as an older member.

[John Venus]

I've warmed up to the Dick/Zatanna thing over time. I think the idea is worth exploring either in the main continuity or in an Elseworlds. Dick and Starfire are from two different genres so I have a hard time imagining how a couples book with the two of them could work while Dick/Babs feel like two peas in a pod. There is not enough contrast between them. Dick and Zatanna are performers and have a much lighter view on the world, not to mention a lot of sex appeal. Plus, you can have stories that can slide from regular crime stories to the more fantastical magical stuff or a mix of the two. Dick and Zatanna could start off as a fun, sexy relationship but over time you can see their differences come to light. Maybe Zatanna is splitting her commitment between Dick and her work. She is always away to perform somewhere else while Dick has to go elsewhere. Maybe Dick, the globe trotting bachelor hero prefers having a steady partner with him to share his adventures. Maybe there are situations like with the high end magic stuff where he is completely useless and makes him wonder if Bruce has a point when it comes to contingency plans. I don't know, it could be fun.

Though my ideal would be Zatara and Thomas as friends, Zatanna and Bruce in the same generation and Zachary in the Teen Titans/Young Justice generation. Whilst, I love YJ, in the comics Zatanna debuted only a couple of years after Barry Allen, Hal Jordan and Ray Palmer, making her absolutely a part of the Silver Age revamp/revival of old DC properties. She just never had her own title for quarter of a century. Putting her in the YJ team with Zatara as a Leaguer is like having a teenage Hal or Barry in the Titans while Alan or Jay are League members. Besides, I don't think there is a problem with her being 30+ and the League needs an adult female powerhouse besides Wonder Woman. Zee, Ralph and Tornado fall into that category of JL members who served for more than a hundred issues and yet they are not 'counted' as part of the Big 7. Plus, Zee is one of the few female heroes with a male side kick.

I think both approaches are worth exploring and lets face it, DC has done weirder stuff when it comes to their characters.

[Rac7d*]

It would also give Dick access to other things. I mean he could be part of JLD at times due to Zataana.

I don’t think the occult fits him like it does Jason Damian or hell even azrael

[John Venus]

I don’t think the occult fits him like it does Jason Damian or hell even azrael

Precisely why it would be interesting. He would be a fish out of water.

[Ascended]

Wingnuts are the easiest sell, it’s getting a general audience that is going to be hard to get back. The readers who could be interested in Dick even though he might not be their very favorite. That’s were numbers over 30k are. Numbers aren’t just going to bounce back after 2 years of being the worse thing on the selves. That’s why quality control and character protection is important. The more shit they produce with the character, the more audiences start seeing the character as shit. Dick will be lucky if his next series levels off in the bottom 30’s now after Ric is done. Remember how people thought all it would take is a decent creative team and a new #1 to get the YJ characters to sell again.

I'm not disagreeing; like I said it'll take time to get sales back up to where they were. What I'm saying is I don't know if the fanbase between Babs and Dick is separate enough; do most people who read Nightwing also read Batgirl (when the books are good)? If so, a team-up book isn't going to do a lot, other than maybe get the base fans back, who'd return for Dick anyway. I *do* think the character could bounce back *relatively* fast, but that doesn't mean just a couple months.

I don't know if YJ is a truly apt comparison though; that book hadn't existed for years, it's a different situation than Nightwing.

[dropkickjake]

While I'd enjoy a Batgirl/Nightwing book, I dont think it'd be a smart sales move. I think both books are capable of being above average sellers. Combining them to one book feels like leaving money on the table.

I do honestly think that a relaunch and a good creative team will really bounce his numbers back up. Just give it a *bit* of publicity. The core fans will be relieved to finally have nightwing on the shelves again, which alone should get us back to the fairly high sales floor Nightwing has normally had. Then making it good... ie giving a good a creative team some freedom... that should get us back into respectable numbers.

As for OTP... while I'm not opposed in theory, that is a tough nut to crack for Dick. You've got two very entrenched camps as far as otp goes already. Furthermore, Dick just really seems to make the most sense with another hero; he's not really one for a normal civilian life so where would he meet and how could he upkeep a "normal" girlfriend. Next, when it comes to pairings, it is just functionally problematic to pair him with an established hero, as she is going to have her own publication schedule and story lines and another creator taking her in their own direction. Original characters are possible, but difficult to pull off. For example, I just really wasn't a fan of Shawn, even thought I loved most of Seeley's work.

I think the best course of action there, honestly, is to not push any pairing as OTP, throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. Create some characters for Dick to be in a relationship with, take them slow, let it build, see how the fanbase takes is.

[bearman]

Nightwing, inc.
Dick and a rotating cast... Robins, Titans, aliens, magicians, Bats...but mostly Wally!

[AmiMizuno]

I don’t think the occult fits him like it does Jason Damian or hell even azrael

True but he has fought them before. It would be interesting to see.


All I have to say about Dick in D animated movies is I hope they do better with him. He is a skilled fighter yet he gets his but handed to him a lot