John Stewart: Green Lantern Appreciation 2020

[Hi-Max]

Harley Quinn is probably a bigger "franchise" than Green Lantern, so I don't even think DC's big franchises are those five that were mentioned above. I'm sure she sells WAY more merch and is more well known these days. So this idea that you can't successfully spin out of something is, again, absolutist nonsense. Black or white. This or that, and NOTHING else. I'm sorry, reality just doesn't work that way.

[SecretWarrior]

Harley Quinn is probably a bigger "franchise" than Green Lantern, so I don't even think DC's big franchises are those five that were mentioned above. I'm sure she sells WAY more merch and is more well known these days. So this idea that you can't successfully spin out of something is, again, absolutist nonsense. Black or white. This or that, and NOTHING else. I'm sorry, reality just doesn't work that way.

Harley Quinn isn't her own franchise, and she hasn't switched up the identity she's had since her inception-- She's a Batman character edited by the Batbook editors. Sorry to break it to you.

Everything about her will always go back to the Batman mythology, and she ain't moving more product than the head of the franchise.

If you want a Black character named Darkstar, then create an original character, because John is Green Lantern-- DC's leading space franchise.

A failure due to ****ty branding decisions will be used as an excuse to say the character is not viable, and John would actually be stomped out. Some people would love that.

Let's have him lick Hal Jordan's boots some more while we're at it, just like how Geoff Johns liked it.

I'd be willing to bet that a John Stewart Green Lantern book would outsell any of the other human Green Lantern characters leading a book called Darkstar or Alpha Lantern, because Green Lantern is the main title for the franchise.

[SecretWarrior]

Nothing's difficult.
Everything's a challenge.
Through adversity--
To the stars.
From the last plane to the last bullet to the last minute to the last man - we fight.
WE fight!
We FIGHT!
WE fight!
We FIGHT!
WE fight!

[Hi-Max]

Harley Quinn isn't her own franchise, and she hasn't switched up the identity she's had since her inception-- She's a Batman character edited by the Batbook editors. Sorry to break it to you.

Everything about her will always go back to the Batman mythology, and she ain't moving more product than the head of the franchise.,

I'm sorry to break this to you, but Harley Quinn does not need to operate under the Batman brand to move more product than Green Lantern does. She only needs to operate under the Harley Quinn brand. Same with Teen Titans, same with Justice League, which are also bigger franchises than Green Lantern. Aquaman probably is, too. This idea that Green Lantern is one of DC's five biggest franchises is something you've constructed in your own mind...I guess because it feels good to you. It would be right in step with these rigid, non-fluid, unwavering ideas you have about how things MUST operate.

If you want a Black character named Darkstar, then create an original character, because John is Green Lantern-- DC's leading space franchise.

Firstly, a black character named Darkstar doesn't matter one way or another to me. Also, John is Green Lantern IV, currently supporting character in DC's leading space franchise.

A failure due to ****ty branding decisions will be used as an excuse to say the character is not viable, and John would actually be stomped out. Some people would love that.

Let's have him lick Hal Jordan's boots some more while we're at it, just like how Geoff Johns liked it.

I'd be willing to bet that a John Stewart Green Lantern book would outsell any of the other human Green Lantern characters leading a book called Darkstar or Alpha Lantern, because Green Lantern is the main title for the franchise.

Going by all existing data, if it does so, it will likely do so by a marginal amount. Compare the 2011 Green Lantern Corps series (or Lost Army)--which wasn't selling gangbusters when John was the lead of it--to other books like the Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz Green Lanterns run, or New Guardians. It's not like there is this massive difference in sales numbers going on there.

[SecretWarrior]

I'm sorry to break this to you, but Harley Quinn does not need to operate under the Batman brand to move more product than Green Lantern does. She only needs to operate under the Harley Quinn brand. Same with Teen Titans, same with Justice League, which are also bigger franchises than Green Lantern. Aquaman probably is, too. This idea that Green Lantern is one of DC's five biggest franchises is something you've constructed in your own mind...I guess because it feels good to you. It would be right in step with these rigid, non-fluid, unwavering ideas you have about how things MUST operate.

Harley will never be her own brand-- She debuted in Batman the Animated Series and takes her iconography from the Joker. Likewise, Wolverine will always be associated with the X-Men, even if he serves as an Avenger. Nothing is going to shift the public consciousness regarding the character so much that he's no longer a mutant and served on the Avengers first. Harley just happens to be the most popular female Bat-character, fulfilling a marketing niche better than others like Batgirl--in large part due to her unique ENFP personality. She's also not a hero but a villain or anti-hero, which also gives her a different role within the franchise creatively. Are you pitching your Darkstar character as a quirky female villain/anti-hero in the Green Lantern franchise? If not, it's apples to oranges.

Green Lantern has been well known as one of DC's top 5 franchises for decades. When DC was going belly up at one point, Marvel considered licensing five properties-- Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and the Flash. When Stan Lee redid the DC heroes, he focused on those five properties. When Wizard pitched their version of the DC Universe, they used those five properties. Those five properties have been adapted more than any of DC's others. The franchise is more than just merchandise, and just because the franchise is on a lull now because of poor creative choices, doesn't mean its a smaller pillar to the overall narrative of the DC Universe than a woman in clown makeup usually operating in Gotham. Captain America is nowhere near Marvel's highest selling book, the the franchise is one of the company's most important narratively.

Firstly, a black character named Darkstar doesn't matter one way or another to me. Also, John is Green Lantern IV, currently supporting character in DC's leading space franchise.

John doesn't bring comic relief or exposition dumps, and he doesn't serve as a foil, so he's not designed as a supporting character. He's a leading character that DC editorial has undermined.

Carol Danvers is Captain Marvel VII (not counting Fawcett characters). Scott Lang is Ant-Man II, with there being three in total, so what's your point?

Going by all existing data, if it does so, it will likely do so by a marginal amount. Compare the 2011 Green Lantern Corps series (or Lost Army)--which wasn't selling gangbusters when John was the lead of it--to other books like the Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz Green Lanterns run, or New Guardians. It's not like there is this massive difference in sales numbers going on there.

Lost Army was pitched as a miniseries, which automatically meant it would sell less than the main franchise book. Based on the Venditti-era numbers, data indicates that the only Green Lantern titles that have any potential of selling are Green Lantern and Green Lantern Corps, with the books not necessarily needing well-known talent to sell. Regardless of quality, Green Lantern does better by default because it's viewed as the main franchise book. On his own, and in a secondary title, John outsold all of the other spin-off ongoings at the time. And I'd be willing to bet if he were in Green Lantern while Hal were in Green Lantern Corps, he would have had the highest selling book because Green Lantern is viewed as the main franchise book.

[Hi-Max]

Harley will never be her own brand-- She debuted in Batman the Animated Series and takes her iconography from the Joker. Likewise, Wolverine will always be associated with the X-Men, even if he serves as an Avenger. Nothing is going to shift the public consciousness regarding the character so much that he's no longer a mutant and served on the Avengers first. Harley just happens to be the most popular female Bat-character, fulfilling a marketing niche better than others like Batgirl--in large part due to her unique ENFP personality. She's also not a hero but a villain or anti-hero, which also gives her a different role within the franchise creatively. Are you pitching your Darkstar character as a quirky female villain/anti-hero in the Green Lantern franchise? If not, it's apples to oranges.

There is a lot of stuff I could reply to here, but what catches my attention the most is...

Okay...what the heck is this Darkstar stuff you keep talking about? Are you having a conversation with someone else and mixing me up with them? You are the one talking about Darkstar this or Darkstar that. I haven't said anything about that other than it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. And I only said that upon being confronted with it.

[Iconic]

I still feel the best way to transition to a new role would be to make him a Guardian again and just make his epithet as "Master Builder" his official title in the Corps. I feel post-New 52 they've set up John as the only Lantern that the Guardians see as an equal; Hal is more like a loose cannon that they respect, Kyle is more like a secret weapon than anything due to his potential for all colors, and Guy is Guy. John on the other hand, they've been monitoring and guiding since birth, they singling him out to check them if they overstep, and he's been trusted to lead the Lanterns multiple times over the years. Also, what sets the Guardians apart from the Lanterns power-wise? their ability to directly use and manipulate the Emotional Spectrum, just like John can now do as a human power battery. the set up is all there, they just have to pull the trigger. people care about the characters and part of the beauty of Green Lanterns is that most of them just go by their names anyway, so it really doesn't matter if they are officially called Green Lantern or not. Guy at his best and most interesting for me was when he was a Red Lantern, so I'm more than fine if they started giving each Lantern their own unique roles to play besides all just being reskin Green Lanterns.

Ooooo I like this. John WAS already a Guardian. He’d still be heavily seen as a Green Lantern. The symbol remains the same. This would be interesting.

[skyvolt2000]

To end the debate over Harley...

She was allowed to stand on her own without the Batman really shadowing her.
She is like Deadpool. It's easy to forget he was once an X-Men villain.
You can make the case for Spider-Man and all his kinfolks.
Along with Red Sonja.
As with Sabrina The Teen Witch.
Along with Shuri
Along with every version of Star Trek, Star Wars, Power Rangers & Dr Who.
So Hi-Max is correct in that.

At the end of the day all those guys represent their respective franchise. The point Secret Warrior is making.
Harley is still a Batman family member.
Zeo, Turbo, SPD or whatever adjective used-they are all still POWER RANGERS.
So when the accountants look at them-they are looking at the franchise as a whole and how each of those performed.

Here is where DC SCREWS up-they want this Green Lantern franchise to be about ONE person.
In SPITE of sales by the others or fan reception.
Jessica & Simon's book at various time outsold as floppies and trades Hal & TGLC.
Kyle held this franchise as the lead for 10 years.
Mosaic was NOT axed over sales.
This franchise once had Sinesto, Red Lanterns, Lafreeze, White Guardians, GLC & Green Lantern books all at once.

The Batman family has at least 9 characters who boast over 70+ solo issues. 5 have 100 or more.
Superman family-Superman, Lois, Jimmy, Supergirl & Conner-100 or more solo issues.
None at the expense of either one.

Green Lantern is an editorial issue.

[SecretWarrior]

[SecretWarrior]

[Sodam Yat]

To end the debate over Harley...

She was allowed to stand on her own without the Batman really shadowing her.
She is like Deadpool. It's easy to forget he was once an X-Men villain.
You can make the case for Spider-Man and all his kinfolks.
Along with Red Sonja.
As with Sabrina The Teen Witch.
Along with Shuri
Along with every version of Star Trek, Star Wars, Power Rangers & Dr Who.
So Hi-Max is correct in that.

At the end of the day all those guys represent their respective franchise. The point Secret Warrior is making.
Harley is still a Batman family member.
Zeo, Turbo, SPD or whatever adjective used-they are all still POWER RANGERS.
So when the accountants look at them-they are looking at the franchise as a whole and how each of those performed.

Here is where DC SCREWS up-they want this Green Lantern franchise to be about ONE person.
In SPITE of sales by the others or fan reception.
Jessica & Simon's book at various time outsold as floppies and trades Hal & TGLC.
Kyle held this franchise as the lead for 10 years.
Mosaic was NOT axed over sales.
This franchise once had Sinesto, Red Lanterns, Lafreeze, White Guardians, GLC & Green Lantern books all at once.

The Batman family has at least 9 characters who boast over 70+ solo issues. 5 have 100 or more.
Superman family-Superman, Lois, Jimmy, Supergirl & Conner-100 or more solo issues.
None at the expense of either one.

Green Lantern is an editorial issue.

Exactly, I agree, Skyvolt.

I think if we look back towards the Geoff Johns era, the Green Lantern books were selling well, which was Green Lantern, Green Lantern Corps, Emerald Warriors etc. I think the fanbase wasn't as divided as it was back then. The fans were more united. So we have to look and see WHAT the editorial has done that caused a big division among the fans.

[lemonpeace]

Ooooo I like this. John WAS already a Guardian. He’d still be heavily seen as a Green Lantern. The symbol remains the same. This would be interesting.

I've been campaigning for John as a Guardian for a grip, it makes the most sense. When they made John the Leader of the Green Lantern Corps that should've been when they did it because when he was made leader it didn't really do anything for him narratively. Yeah, he gave more orders but it didn't really change the character's action all that much from what he was already doing because at the end of the day the Guardians were still the real leaders of the Corps, so John was effectively an assistant manager or a vice principal. Like imagine how cold would it be if a cosmic incident breaks out, the Quintessence show up, and John Stewart is in that bitch with some dope ass red and gold Maltusian Guardian garb; helping save the multiverse while standing shoulder to shoulder with the most powerful and most important entities in the universe. If they did a book they could do something like Silver Surfer Black or The Ultimates where he's dealing with the cosmic problems behind the scenes that are too big to leave festering in the background.

[SecretWarrior]

I've been campaigning for John as a Guardian for a grip, it makes the most sense. When they made John the Leader of the Green Lantern Corps that should've been when they did it because when he was made leader it didn't really do anything for him narratively. Yeah, he gave more orders but it didn't really change the character's action all that much from what he was already doing because at the end of the day the Guardians were still the real leaders of the Corps, so John was effectively an assistant manager or a vice principal. Like imagine how cold would it be if a cosmic incident breaks out, the Quintessence show up, and John Stewart is in that bitch with some dope ass red and gold Maltusian Guardian garb; helping save the multiverse while standing shoulder to shoulder with the most powerful and most important entities in the universe. If they did a book they could do something like Silver Surfer Black or The Ultimates where he's dealing with the cosmic problems behind the scenes that are too big to leave festering in the background.

I'm concerned that powering him up like that would actually promote him out of relevancy, like Kyle becoming Ion or White Lantern. Neither of those things helped sales, since a neglected character like John outsold him when both haf ongoing titles published during the samebtime period.. Besides deviating from the core GL concept (when he should be front and center as its embodiment), it would likely end his exposure on the Justice League, when he should be getting more exposure than ever. Nothing wrong with a title or being seen as a leader though. Would rather he kept to his iconic duds to maintain character recognition.

[Robanker]

Currently, Harley is bigger than GL. She's probably around Robin as an IP's level of exposure, but it's not wrong to say GL is one of the top five franchises at DC. Regardless of sales, GL was always one of the Big 5 and for a while was on top of Flash, but is probably now beneath it for various reasons.

I will say I do like the idea of John as a guardian because lemonpeace sold me on it, but not just for the reasons stated. He'd be among the first guardians not from Maltus and that brings a new perspective to them and story ideals. People are asking for John to be involved with internal affairs but as Guardian he would be-- he'd be the one under purview. There's no doubt he'd be accused of bias for the human GLs and perhaps it'd lead to other guardians getting outright called out for human favoritism. It leads to a lot of story potential for political intrigue, and if John needs something it's a story that's his own that can't be discounted as being borrowed from someone else (sadly he borrowed a lot from Hal in the animated series and his relationship is essentially borrowed from Hawkman). Maybe this is what he needs. I don't know. But I sincerely hope DC finds a way to get John this last missing piece of the puzzle.

I haven't read Mosaic so perhaps that's excellent. Should I give it a read?

[Hi-Max]

I suppose we could ask the question is the Punisher a Spider-Man franchise character? I suppose...from a certain point of view, but he really stands on his own and is his own brand at this point that is not marketed under the Spider-Man franchise. Same with Cloak and Dagger, who debuted as Spider-Man characters. Harley began as a motley wearing sidekick to a Batman villain. She organically grew out of that and needs neither the Joker nor Batman to be successful. She can revisit that in certain takes or play the role of a Batman villain or whatnot, but she really doesn't need that at this point. Harley Quinn, by herself, is a successful brand. She is not how she began, nor does she NEED to be locked in a certain role...because things in life are often fluid.

There's nothing saying a similar scenario couldn't work with John Stewart other than self imposed arbitrary "rules" that people make themselves. I'm not saying it's 1000% sure to work, because that depends on all kinds of stuff, but neither would I say it's 1000% sure not to work. Frankly, I don't think the Green Lantern identity is so integral to John Stewart, nor is John Stewart so integral to Green Lantern (because he isn't) to where an audience would simply never accept the character under some other name or role if it was done well.